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#153989 - 06/08/05 09:41 PM to meat or not to meat
wolfscalissi Offline

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 103
Loc: austin, TX usa
Ok, lets dicuss vegetarianism. The first grave precept says Affirm life, do not kill. if we choose to continue to dwell on this plane we must kill in order to sustain ourselves. here lies the rub. even if you are a vegetarian you are taking life to sustain your self the pesticides used on the plants killed the bugs, the land cleared to plant the food took homes and likely lives from small animals etc. If you still eat meat then we can stop right there. don't get me wrong I'm not advocating either way I just want to hear what you have to say. I'm going to post a couple of threads from enlightened beings that shed light to both sides.
Cheri Hubers take which is very heart wrenching. I sat at a seshin with her and she is an amazing practitioner

one less act of violence (this is a link, a long read. at least read the last paragraph or two if nothing else. these hit home the hardest)

next is Masao Abe an really amazing comparative religions philosopher and Buddhist by choice It is about compassion he said

"It is the law of the Buddha," he said, "not to destroy life. If so, one cannot eat. The notion that it is justifiable to kill plants but not animals is an illusion of (warning big word ahead!) anthropocentrism"*

*n : an inclination to evaluate reality exclusively in terms of human values*

"but if we do not eat, we destroy ourselves, still violating the Buddhist law. Thus the significance of the gassho, the pressing together of the palms,before partaking of a meal.One destroys life so as not to destroy life, but one does so only at the ultimate heartfelt limit." (from the text of Masao Abe a Zen Life of Dialogue)

so there you are some seriously tough thinking to do. I myself fall closer to Cheri Hubers side from an anger standpoint. realizing that by taking small steps in our own eating habits we could really make a huge change in all of this. thank you for your consideration of this topic

Warning! objects in mirror are not as enlightened as they appear.

#153990 - 06/09/05 01:16 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: wolfscalissi]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
here is my philosophy not based on any formal knowledge of this debate...

Where would life on earth be without a food chain? there would be no competion and therefore no progress through the eons.
If animals eating plants and other animals is good enough for animals, then why isn't it good enough for us? is it because we consider ourselves 'better' than an animal? We would need ego for that position wouldn't we?

I think the question happens to also be the aspect that nature didn't acount for...mass production. We can't all be hunters and gatherers to feed everyone. and we can't keep mass-producing until all of the food resources and land is depleted...I'm afraid science is going to have to eventually bail us out of this problem too. This discussion becomes non applicable when we start taking pills for dinner. could be a hundred years from now or more...but it has to be. Enjoy the raw red cattle-farm mass-processed meat now while it lasts.

By the way, an important but brief political message: Africa needs food and medicine more than any other time in history. They are dying at the rate of 1 tsumami per month. They probably aren't thinking too zen about things. I mention this not to make anyone feel guilty, just to put the topic in perspective.

#153991 - 06/09/05 02:29 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Save a cow,eat a PETA.
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

#153992 - 06/09/05 07:05 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: SANCHIN31]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
I have to say that I see humans as mammals, we are omnivorous and we have a taste for animal flesh. We are not above or exempt from our instincts.

Farming animals for slaughter is not pleasant, but with the worlds spiraling overpopulation it is necessary to sustain us all as we balance on this little rock.

If everyone became vegetarian, the destruction of natural habitat to accomodate the increased need for crop farming would be as detrimental as keeping things as they are, especialy now that geneticaly engineered crops/HYV's are frowned upon, and we want more organic (inneficient) fruit and veg. Not to mention all the livestock being slaughtered for absolutely no purpose and burned on a pyre of our new found piety.

Like most/all environmental problems, its source can be found in overpopulation. Orphanages/childrens homes are full, yet so are maternity wards. I will stop now for fear of getting too political.

'There is room on earth for all gods creatures- right next to the mashed potatoes' (Advert for a steakhouse)
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#153993 - 06/09/05 08:36 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: wolfscalissi]
nenipp Offline

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
If a cow is killed, it will give food to a whole bunch of people, whereas for one vegetarian meal a whole bunch of plants would have to be killed, right?
This is really a hard one.
I eat both animals and plants, I'm a regular monster!
On the other hand, who knows how many times I'v been eaten myself, if the reincarnation theory is anything to go by...

Keep us buzy, wolfie

#153994 - 06/09/05 11:07 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: nenipp]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
P.E.T.A.- People. Eating Tasty Animals

#153995 - 06/11/05 03:43 PM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Well, I am conflicted on this one. Did Buddha mean don't eat meat, don't kill anything sentient, don't kill any kind of animal (bugs to people?), or perhaps did he mean don't make war? I need some theologians to battle this out and to tell me.

Until then, I will continue to eat meat, being grateful to my animal brothers for their sacrifice so that I may grow.

#153996 - 06/11/05 11:12 PM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: harlan]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I personally don't care what buddha wanted us to do,I'm a carnivore!
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

#153997 - 06/12/05 12:12 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: SANCHIN31]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
I would hope that you're an omnivore, SANCHIN. I doubt that being a carnivore you would get the proper dietary needs. Unless, of course, you did what other true carnivores do and eat the stomachs of your prey. MMMMM, haggis.

As for being a vegetarian, my sister has been one for a couple of years. She does it for certain reasons(mainly animal welfare/treatment), and I support her in that. I've tried many "vegetarian" foods, and most of them aren't bad. I would become a vegetarian for her reasons as well, if it weren't for turkeys, and pigs, and shrimp, and crabs, and chickens...

Cognitive dissonance or not, I like meat.
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

#153998 - 06/12/05 12:19 AM Re: to meat or not to meat [Re: JoelM]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I guess I just eat whatever I get my hands on. I have no problem with vegitarians as long as they don't nag me about eating meat.
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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