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#153938 - 06/08/05 08:05 PM Krav and Systema
modernwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 40
I have watched and practiced a little bit of both styles and all it seemed was like glorified street fighting very practical if i might add. But what is the difference between the Russian Martial Arts(Systema) and Krav Maga? They bolth are very practical and usefull.

**I edited this post to remove "Vs" in the title. I would rather not add to the debate between these two forms. - RangerG**


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:29 PM)

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#153939 - 06/08/05 11:53 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Systema?

I don't see the connection.
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#153940 - 06/09/05 11:45 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Since I have no idea what Systema is, I would have to google it and do some research.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153941 - 06/10/05 12:27 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: RangerG]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Systema is a Russian art, translates into "The System". I'm not really up to speed on the history but in recent history the claim is that Systema was used by the Soviet Special Forces (Spetsnaz).

Krav and Systema are very different though it's hard to explain. The best explanation I can attempt is that Krav tends to work on fewer basic "combatives" and strives for initiative while Systema really works on flow and softness.

From what I've experienced, the training methods are also quite different. Systema incorporates a "slow-motion sparring" which I've never done with any other art.

Chris

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#153942 - 06/13/05 03:05 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
If you've ever seen Systema, it is highly influenced by Akido and Taiji. In fact alot of the things are Taiji based, they just take out all the concepts and make it a military art. I've seen them do body sensitivity excercises and even surge punching (fa jing). Interesting, but some of the stuff is just ridiculous, at least from video tapes I've seen (disarming a knife with your stomach?)
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Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#153943 - 06/17/05 12:10 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Fletch1]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I don`t think there is any connection between systema and krav maga. The way I see this two arts is that the main focus of systema is relaxation and improvization, while in KM you sort of have set techniques.

I think both arts are great. But like BaguaMonk said, some stuff from systema look ridiculous.

I don`t know how much systema was influenced by taiji and aikido (it does have some similarities), but I heard that it developed from old russian martial arts.
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Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153944 - 06/18/05 10:25 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Kosh]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

The way I see this two arts is that the main focus of systema is relaxation and improvization, while in KM you sort of have set techniques.




Where is there relaxation in Krav? Our workouts are very intnese and our training is as about as physical as it gets without inflicting serious injury on our training partner.

I see quite a difference between the styles. The thing that is curious to me, is that systema is not what I saw the the Russians doing back in the 60's and 70's when I was in the Army.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153945 - 06/22/05 05:38 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: RangerG]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
I said that there is relaxation in Systema not Krav maga. Sytema can be really intense and physical too, but there is a big emphasis (sp?) on relaxation.

Like I said before I don`t see any connection between them, except maybe that they are both meant for self defence, and were supposedly practiced by the military.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153946 - 06/22/05 08:28 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: RangerG]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
This site seemed to be a bit more informative.

http://www.systemamartialart.com/

Interesting. I wondered what my counterparts in the old USSR were training in when I was in the Army back in the 70's.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153947 - 07/08/05 08:52 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: RangerG]
fattts14 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/07/05
Posts: 224
Loc: T.O. On, Can
If anyone still cares...Systema does have some pretty ridiculous stuff, but it works. The only problem is half of the stuff is not allowed in competition. I wouldn't exactly call it relaxing, as I moan and groan due to last nights training. THe teaching methods have a relaxed atmosphere, no yelling and screaming in different languages and stuff. It is supposed to help with accelerated learning and quick comprehension by removing the tension. It does take it's routes from ancient Russia and basicly took the best of all the fighting styles they encountered through all of history (like when the mongols envaded, ancient battles with the turks and persians, etc.) and narrowed it down to the most effective and deadly moves.
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Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#153948 - 07/27/05 06:37 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: fattts14]
Kaver Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 25
I've heard that back before or after WW1 (I really can't remember) the Isreali army was having problems with some rebels (or something like that) and they contacted the Russian (Soviet back then) army to help them learn an effective way of fighting. So the soviet Army contracted out the Spetznas to teach the Isreali army the Systema.

I don't know if you guys have noticed Krav Maga is the true Systema HARD CORE, what I mean is all the movements are the same, the emphasis on well like Bruce Lee put it "...be like water..." move lossely but hit as hard as you can, and there are so many more comparissions gun disarming, knife fighting, knife disarming, evading stikes, giving and taking strikes, and so forth.

I'm a huge fan of the Systema but I give credit where credit is due. Krav Maga is what you'd be learning if you were trainning for the Spetz.
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#153949 - 07/27/05 08:37 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Kaver]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Well, there you have it.

Israeli forces contracted Russians to teach them how to fight better. The result is that KM = Systema. The old "if it's good or popular, then they got it from us" argument.

That should irritate some people.

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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#153950 - 07/27/05 09:05 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Kaver]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Kaver -

Quote:

I've heard that back before or after WW1 (I really can't remember) the Isreali army was having problems with some rebels (or something like that) and they contacted the Russian (Soviet back then) army to help them learn an effective way of fighting. So the soviet Army contracted out the Spetznas to teach the Isreali army the Systema




Holy crap. I am far from a history buff, but even I know that statement is so full of historical inaccuracies as to be completely worthless.

Google some history, kids....that is just....oy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#153951 - 07/29/05 09:36 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: MattJ]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
MattJ,

Not everyone feels bound and restricted by facts and actual history!

It's possible that the Soviets would teach the Israelis how to fight at the same time they were arming the rest of the middle east to "drive them into the sea". Of course they should have taught some form of iron shirt or trained them to shoot with their eyes closed and "using the force".

As for the timeline, I can't even come up with anything entertaining or speculative

Chris

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#153952 - 07/29/05 09:47 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: csinca]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
this is pretty much full of crap, with some possible grains of truth burried inside.


1. the time line is pretty screwed up - krav was developed in the 40's with a lot of what is being used now developed in the 60's and 70's.

2. the leadership of the israeli military, in the begining, came from the british and the russian armies. several well known founders were assosiated with britsh camandos. it is possible, but not documented, that there were russian camandos who came to israel after wwii, joined the israeli army and incorporated parts of the system into krav maga

3. what is more likly is that since the 80's a few hundred ex soviet spetz guys have immigrated to israel, some of them have gotten involved in krav, and this could have been responsible for the cross "contamination"

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#153953 - 07/31/05 02:03 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: globetrotter]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

In August 1986, the Soviet Union renewed contacts with Israel for the first time since severing diplomatic relations immediately following the June 1967 War.




It seems that though the Soviets and Israelis were talking again, everything, shall we say, was not "kosher"

Quote:

Despite its renewed contacts with Israel, the Soviet Union continued to support the PLO and the Palestinian cause through military training and arms shipments. Moscow also used various front organizations, such as the World Peace Council, to wage propaganda campaigns against the Israeli regime in international forums.





This is straight from the US Library of Congress, and here's a link to aid your timeline.

http://countrystudies.us/israel/109.htm

History is a curious thing, and it's good to know your roots. Also remember though, that history is written by the victors.
_________________________
Calling yourself "Master" implies that you have slaves.

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#153954 - 08/01/05 04:16 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Boomer]
Mtripp Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 25
Well, I have siad this before, and it always brings me a great deal of heat. But, once more unto the breech,

I was in the Army, my job was to understand what the Soviets were going to do to us, or at least try. I can show you lots of stuff about Sambo, but this "systema" thing I never heard of in any context.

The first I heard of it was in the comic's. Batman had an opponent called "The KGBeast" who used "The system" to defeat his opponents.

I have seen their tapes, including the VERY silly "troopa", and seen the demo live in Toronto at the LeBell Grapling event.

I thinkj I can safely say there is no connection to Krav Maga.

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#153955 - 08/01/05 06:20 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Mtripp]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I have done some digging and have not found a connection either.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153956 - 08/13/05 08:49 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

I have watched and practiced a little bit of both styles and all it seemed was like glorified street fighting very practical if i might add. But what is the difference between the Russian Martial Arts(Systema) and Krav Maga? They bolth are very practical and usefull.




Aside from the fact that they are both taught to their respective militaries, there's no connection.

Systema or "Russian Martial Art" (note how "art" is singular--a Russian phenomenon) has all kinds of whacky stuff in it, that supposedly dates back to earlier periods in Russian history. If I recall correctly, the entire sambo (the Russian synthesis of judo and various indigenous Eurasian wrestling styles) syllabus is also a part of Systema.

Krav Maga, on the other hand, looks pretty much like most other conventional modern military combatives, like Fairbairn's defendu, etc (and hence one wonders why there's even a need for a separate forum on this stuff).
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#153957 - 08/13/05 08:55 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: fattts14]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

It does take it's routes from ancient Russia and basicly took the best of all the fighting styles they encountered through all of history (like when the mongols envaded, ancient battles with the turks and persians, etc.) and narrowed it down to the most effective and deadly moves.




Prove it.

I suspect that the Systema claim you mention above is pure nonsense (Moderators edit for language).

And, if it isn't, then all I can say is that the Mongol Conquest and Occupation of Mother Russia must have been the all-time low point for Systema development.

Certainly, Systema didn't help the local boyars against the Mongol Horde one bit.


Edited by RangerG (08/16/05 02:13 PM)
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#153958 - 11/18/05 10:31 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: Kaver]
fileboy2002 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 999
Loc: Chicago, IL
You heard wrong. The Soviet Union did not come into existence until 1917--the last year of WWI. Israel was not founded until 1948--three years after WWII ended.


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:32 PM)

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#153959 - 11/18/05 11:37 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: fileboy2002]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

You heard wrong. The Soviet Union did not come into existence until 1917--the last year of WWI. Israel was not founded until 1948--three years after WWII ended.




Whoa...let's be a little more polite Huh?


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:32 PM)
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153960 - 11/18/05 11:34 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
After doing a bit of poking and searching...I have met a local man who trains in Systema. He is going to get me the link to their website and give me some insight into the form/art.

The lengths I will go to...to get you folks answers...


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:33 PM)
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153961 - 11/20/05 08:36 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: RangerG]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
The Systema vrs Krav argument has appearded on many forums and always are created by Krav students. Both arts are very different beasts, but have a connection to their nation's millitary as the only real link.

Also though it shares similar principles with taichi, aikido and a thousand other arts if you cannot be bothered to look it is not a symphasis of these styles. Systema developed mainly from tradiional Russian Systems and the Soviet armies own research.

For more information on systema check out my website. At least this will give you some idea of what we are about. Obviously like all arts a site is only a flavour. Try a class to find out what can and cannot be done.

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:33 PM)

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#153962 - 11/21/05 10:36 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: PaulGenge]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Paul,

To be honest..I have never heard a Krav student bash Systema. My experience has been that they are curious and want to see how they are the same or different.

I also do not tolerate bashing of any form or style in my forum...I warn, then lock...and if needed ban.

This forum is for polite discussion of Krav or ANY other defense form.

You are more than welcome to post any Systema information you wish, as well as bring in new members who train in Systema.

Oh...and Welcome!


Edited by RangerG (11/21/05 12:31 PM)
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153963 - 11/21/05 03:39 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: RangerG]
PaulGenge Offline
Newbie

Registered: 10/25/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Manchester, UK
The martial art A vrs B threads never go anywhere. It always degenerates into two or more people of opposing view points arguing that their system is correct.

There is plenty of information on both Krav and Systema that even an untrained blind man can see they are vastly different in approach.

The next logical question is then which is best for any particular individual. There is only one answer to this go have a try and make a decission. Any amount of banter on a forum is not going to bring a greater understanding.

That was the point I am trying to make.

It is far more benificial to have a thread that asks specific questions about an art, of someone qualified in it, than have two people who only know of the other art from what they have seen on the net, to compare what they do...

Paul Genge

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#153964 - 11/21/05 04:08 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: PaulGenge]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I think we agree.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153965 - 02/18/06 04:00 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: RangerG]
Rayachick Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/18/06
Posts: 12
Loc: Missouri, USA
Here are some silly yet i feel logical questions.

Is it possible to train in Krav then train in Systema?
Or would one be able train in Systema then Krav?
Or might one who has the resources, be able to train in both?
Or are the styles too different to learn both effectively?

I ask simply becuase when i was learning to fly, i was warned before hand that i should learn a helicopter first then learn a plane becuase it's harder to go from a thing that almost flies itself to something you must control every aspect of, like vertical and horizontal flow, not just horizontal. But if one understands the helicopter first, then flying a plane is learned much more easily with better accuracy.
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One only regrets what he missed or cannot accept.

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#153966 - 02/18/06 04:23 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: Rayachick]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Quote:

Here are some silly yet i feel logical questions.

Is it possible to train in Krav then train in Systema?
Or would one be able train in Systema then Krav?
Or might one who has the resources, be able to train in both?
Or are the styles too different to learn both effectively?

I ask simply becuase when i was learning to fly, i was warned before hand that i should learn a helicopter first then learn a plane becuase it's harder to go from a thing that almost flies itself to something you must control every aspect of, like vertical and horizontal flow, not just horizontal. But if one understands the helicopter first, then flying a plane is learned much more easily with better accuracy.




Well to be honest, I trained in fixed wing during my Civil Air Patrol days, then went into the Army and CH-47 Helicopters..I had no problems.

Now about Krav and Systema..I cannot honestly answer that because I have not trained in Systema. They are both Self Defense Systems, not Martial Arts. I would hazard a guess that you should chose one based on your observations and dedicate yourself to it. If you want to take a second form, I would pick a Tradidional Martial Art. This is just based on my own experience and observation of others.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153967 - 02/20/06 12:50 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: Rayachick]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
The first question really should be why would you be training in both? Does one lack something that the other would provide you? If you look at what you are really trying to accomplish with your training the answer may come a bit more clearly to you.

I choose to mix Krav with BJJ because I wanted more emphasis on my ground game. In my experience the two make a pretty good mix because at least in my training the focus of the two didn't overlap too much.

I've got fairly limited exposure to Systema but from a "range" point of view it overlaps quite a bit with Krav... The problem I think you will face is which methodology you would want starting just outside of striking range.

Chris

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#153968 - 02/22/06 03:13 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: csinca]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I don't think there is much of any reason to train in both Krav and Systema if you are only interested in self defense. In fact, it may serve to confuse the instincts that both systems develop. Although many of the techniques are similar, they are different enough to confuse your muscle memory. However, if you are looking at it from a more academic standpoint, there is absolutely NO reason not to train in both as it will expand your knowledge of MA overall. Either way, mixing a straight SD system with a TMA, as Ranger pointed out, isn't a bad idea. KM, for example, provides great conditioning and stresses your body as part of it's drills. However there are gaps in strengthening, as the classes tend to be a little more full-bore. Once I realized this, I started training in the mixed Shaolin Kung Fu classes that my school offers. This has helped immensely, almost without my noticing, by way of stance drills, practice of forms and good 'ol Kung Fu torture excercises.

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#153969 - 03/16/06 05:35 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: ShikataGaNai]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
Ive always been intensely interested in russian history, and I believe krav could very well draw some history from systema, jews started settling in israel in very low numbers during the russian revolution and have steadily increased their immigration to israel since. It stands to reason jews who lived in russia, were familar with systema and practiced it. Other elements of russian culture (agriculture and 'mir' communal living) are very strong aspects of the early birth of israel, before it became a jewish state. Im currently trying to find more about these connections and if I find anything I will let you guys know. Yes krav is quite diffrent from systema, but it's been deliberatly designed ad hoc to suit a specific goal for israel, naturally systema wasn't an entirely appropriate choice for them, so i theorize they drew inspiration from systema to develop krav maga

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#153970 - 04/04/06 10:18 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
so, as it turns out, krav maga was first developed in hungary and czechoslovakia. As you may know fascist dictators at the time, and general anti-semetic populations of these countrys were instigating riots agaisnt the jews, and along with other hungarian and czechoslovakian boxers and wrestlers, Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system of krav maga to protect the jews from the fascists. Then, he moved to palestine (before the british mandate established it as a nation) and developed it further. He changed his name to Sde-Or, he continued to teach it after israel became a nation, and his last work was to adapt it to be trained to civilian israeli's.

So, I think it's quite likely he derived influence from systema, but im still working on that connection.

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#153971 - 04/05/06 08:58 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
astartg,

I think that you are reaching too much. krav wasn't developed in hungary and czecheslovakia - it was developed by people who came from those countries. and remember, pre-world war two, czecheslovakia and hungary had nothing to do with russia, they were much more in the circle of influence of germany and austria. the building blocks of krav were western boxing and wrestleling, and basic asian martial arts like judo and karate.

also, when was system really developed? most of the russians who came to israel did so before the 1920's. until the recent wave in the 1980's and 1990's

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#153972 - 04/07/06 01:16 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: globetrotter]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
everything I posted is factual. I did my research. The only thing that is "reaching" is the connection to systema. and despite your claim that czechoslovakia and hungary have 'nothing' to do with russia in those times, your wrong.

They have very similar culutures in some regards, and are geographicly close. Eastern european countrys like czechoslovkia and germany, have more in common with the east of europe/asia, then they do with western europe in many regards.

I may be "reaching'. but 'reaching' is the point of focused research.

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#153973 - 04/07/06 04:12 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Imi Licthenfeld created Krav Maga. To understand its origin you must first understand his history. What is the purpose of this conversation by the way? Israel is recognized as the purveying state with regard to Krav Maga! This is simple to understand!

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#153974 - 04/07/06 04:27 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: PSYOPS]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
well, that recognition is wrong, because it was developed outside of israel, by non israelis, before israel existed.

yes, it's a modern art, that has evolved ever since it was was introduced to israel. But it did not originate in israel.


Edited by astarg (04/07/06 04:28 PM)

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#153975 - 04/07/06 05:03 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
astarg,

sorry, dude, you seem to know very little. first, do you have any proof that krav was developed outside of Israel? that would seem to go against all common sense, and all the history that we know now. now, yes, it does soemtimes happen that writen history is wrong and that some historians finds out new information, but this isn't that common. where are your facts from?

abotu the czechoslovakia and hungary - sorry, but I know what I am talking about. before wwii, there was very little cultural exchange between russia and these coutries. their langauges are not slavic, and their religion is not orthodox. yes, they are close to russia (about as far as chicago is from nyc from moscow) but they are both closer and more influenced by germany and austria. neither had ever been ruled by russia before wwii. it would be almost impossible, or inconcievable for a russian military trainer to com eto hungary or czecheslovakia and get involved in training people in those countries.

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#153976 - 04/07/06 05:21 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
You obviously know very little about czechoslovakia.

Im not even going to bother continuing this conversation, because your a <removed by moderator>.


Edited by RangerG (04/08/06 08:29 AM)

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#153977 - 04/08/06 08:28 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I think this is the point where you either provide accurate references to back your claim, or drop the subject.

You are up agains a number of folks, including myself, who know the complete history of Krav.

I am also a historian of european history from WWI thru WWII, including a good working knowledge of the formation of Israel.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153978 - 04/08/06 08:30 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
astarg,

have you ever been to czechoslovakia, hungary, russia or israel? I have spent extensive periods of time in each. take a look at a map of europe and see exactly how "close" prague is to moscow, or for that matter Budapest is.

if you have something of value to contribute, feel free. but you seem to be alittle boy with too much time on his hands and no library card, so go troll someplace else.

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#153979 - 04/08/06 09:30 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: globetrotter]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
Wow...did anyone look at the reads on this thread? Over four thousand!! Look in any other forum...you will see very few threads with this read count..

I guess the Krav/Systema subject is interesting to the lurkers... *shrug*

It also seems the resource threads at the top get a lot of hits as well.
_________________________
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153980 - 07/05/06 12:51 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: globetrotter]
saleem Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 6
Hey Globetrotter,

I appreciate the fact that you have travelled to many places and had a first hand chance to see things for yourself. Let me say that I am a systema student and have checked out some of the history of KM and it all revolves around the man called Imi Lichtenfield. I do recall that he grew up in eastern Europe and was exposed to fighting arts since his father was a policeman who had a reputation of single-handedly fighting and capturing street criminals. Imi is the main person associated with KM and as I understand he many good qualities as a teacher and could judge character very well. It said that he would not teach someone that he felt would use the knowledge and skills for evil purposes. This is exactly what Vladimir Vasiliev (Systema Instructor)has done as well. A basic love of goodness and hate for evil is part of their character. If you read about Mr. Valsilev you will find out that he left the USSR after the breakup for he was tired of the internal politics of the country and its effects. No doubt Imi moved to the land that was later called Israel but it is a fine point to limit the geograhpy of the KM system.

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