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#153968 - 02/22/06 03:13 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: csinca]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
I don't think there is much of any reason to train in both Krav and Systema if you are only interested in self defense. In fact, it may serve to confuse the instincts that both systems develop. Although many of the techniques are similar, they are different enough to confuse your muscle memory. However, if you are looking at it from a more academic standpoint, there is absolutely NO reason not to train in both as it will expand your knowledge of MA overall. Either way, mixing a straight SD system with a TMA, as Ranger pointed out, isn't a bad idea. KM, for example, provides great conditioning and stresses your body as part of it's drills. However there are gaps in strengthening, as the classes tend to be a little more full-bore. Once I realized this, I started training in the mixed Shaolin Kung Fu classes that my school offers. This has helped immensely, almost without my noticing, by way of stance drills, practice of forms and good 'ol Kung Fu torture excercises.

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#153969 - 03/16/06 05:35 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: ShikataGaNai]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
Ive always been intensely interested in russian history, and I believe krav could very well draw some history from systema, jews started settling in israel in very low numbers during the russian revolution and have steadily increased their immigration to israel since. It stands to reason jews who lived in russia, were familar with systema and practiced it. Other elements of russian culture (agriculture and 'mir' communal living) are very strong aspects of the early birth of israel, before it became a jewish state. Im currently trying to find more about these connections and if I find anything I will let you guys know. Yes krav is quite diffrent from systema, but it's been deliberatly designed ad hoc to suit a specific goal for israel, naturally systema wasn't an entirely appropriate choice for them, so i theorize they drew inspiration from systema to develop krav maga

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#153970 - 04/04/06 10:18 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
so, as it turns out, krav maga was first developed in hungary and czechoslovakia. As you may know fascist dictators at the time, and general anti-semetic populations of these countrys were instigating riots agaisnt the jews, and along with other hungarian and czechoslovakian boxers and wrestlers, Imi Lichtenfeld developed the system of krav maga to protect the jews from the fascists. Then, he moved to palestine (before the british mandate established it as a nation) and developed it further. He changed his name to Sde-Or, he continued to teach it after israel became a nation, and his last work was to adapt it to be trained to civilian israeli's.

So, I think it's quite likely he derived influence from systema, but im still working on that connection.

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#153971 - 04/05/06 08:58 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
astartg,

I think that you are reaching too much. krav wasn't developed in hungary and czecheslovakia - it was developed by people who came from those countries. and remember, pre-world war two, czecheslovakia and hungary had nothing to do with russia, they were much more in the circle of influence of germany and austria. the building blocks of krav were western boxing and wrestleling, and basic asian martial arts like judo and karate.

also, when was system really developed? most of the russians who came to israel did so before the 1920's. until the recent wave in the 1980's and 1990's

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#153972 - 04/07/06 01:16 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: globetrotter]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
everything I posted is factual. I did my research. The only thing that is "reaching" is the connection to systema. and despite your claim that czechoslovakia and hungary have 'nothing' to do with russia in those times, your wrong.

They have very similar culutures in some regards, and are geographicly close. Eastern european countrys like czechoslovkia and germany, have more in common with the east of europe/asia, then they do with western europe in many regards.

I may be "reaching'. but 'reaching' is the point of focused research.

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#153973 - 04/07/06 04:12 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
PSYOPS Offline
Member

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 25
Imi Licthenfeld created Krav Maga. To understand its origin you must first understand his history. What is the purpose of this conversation by the way? Israel is recognized as the purveying state with regard to Krav Maga! This is simple to understand!

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#153974 - 04/07/06 04:27 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: PSYOPS]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
well, that recognition is wrong, because it was developed outside of israel, by non israelis, before israel existed.

yes, it's a modern art, that has evolved ever since it was was introduced to israel. But it did not originate in israel.


Edited by astarg (04/07/06 04:28 PM)

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#153975 - 04/07/06 05:03 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
astarg,

sorry, dude, you seem to know very little. first, do you have any proof that krav was developed outside of Israel? that would seem to go against all common sense, and all the history that we know now. now, yes, it does soemtimes happen that writen history is wrong and that some historians finds out new information, but this isn't that common. where are your facts from?

abotu the czechoslovakia and hungary - sorry, but I know what I am talking about. before wwii, there was very little cultural exchange between russia and these coutries. their langauges are not slavic, and their religion is not orthodox. yes, they are close to russia (about as far as chicago is from nyc from moscow) but they are both closer and more influenced by germany and austria. neither had ever been ruled by russia before wwii. it would be almost impossible, or inconcievable for a russian military trainer to com eto hungary or czecheslovakia and get involved in training people in those countries.

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#153976 - 04/07/06 05:21 PM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
astarg Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/16/06
Posts: 5
You obviously know very little about czechoslovakia.

Im not even going to bother continuing this conversation, because your a <removed by moderator>.


Edited by RangerG (04/08/06 08:29 AM)

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#153977 - 04/08/06 08:28 AM Re: Krav and Systema [Re: astarg]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I think this is the point where you either provide accurate references to back your claim, or drop the subject.

You are up agains a number of folks, including myself, who know the complete history of Krav.

I am also a historian of european history from WWI thru WWII, including a good working knowledge of the formation of Israel.
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