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#153948 - 07/27/05 06:37 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: fattts14]
Kaver Offline
Member

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 25
I've heard that back before or after WW1 (I really can't remember) the Isreali army was having problems with some rebels (or something like that) and they contacted the Russian (Soviet back then) army to help them learn an effective way of fighting. So the soviet Army contracted out the Spetznas to teach the Isreali army the Systema.

I don't know if you guys have noticed Krav Maga is the true Systema HARD CORE, what I mean is all the movements are the same, the emphasis on well like Bruce Lee put it "...be like water..." move lossely but hit as hard as you can, and there are so many more comparissions gun disarming, knife fighting, knife disarming, evading stikes, giving and taking strikes, and so forth.

I'm a huge fan of the Systema but I give credit where credit is due. Krav Maga is what you'd be learning if you were trainning for the Spetz.
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#153949 - 07/27/05 08:37 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Kaver]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Well, there you have it.

Israeli forces contracted Russians to teach them how to fight better. The result is that KM = Systema. The old "if it's good or popular, then they got it from us" argument.

That should irritate some people.

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#153950 - 07/27/05 09:05 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Kaver]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Kaver -

Quote:

I've heard that back before or after WW1 (I really can't remember) the Isreali army was having problems with some rebels (or something like that) and they contacted the Russian (Soviet back then) army to help them learn an effective way of fighting. So the soviet Army contracted out the Spetznas to teach the Isreali army the Systema




Holy crap. I am far from a history buff, but even I know that statement is so full of historical inaccuracies as to be completely worthless.

Google some history, kids....that is just....oy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#153951 - 07/29/05 09:36 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: MattJ]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
MattJ,

Not everyone feels bound and restricted by facts and actual history!

It's possible that the Soviets would teach the Israelis how to fight at the same time they were arming the rest of the middle east to "drive them into the sea". Of course they should have taught some form of iron shirt or trained them to shoot with their eyes closed and "using the force".

As for the timeline, I can't even come up with anything entertaining or speculative

Chris

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#153952 - 07/29/05 09:47 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: csinca]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
this is pretty much full of crap, with some possible grains of truth burried inside.


1. the time line is pretty screwed up - krav was developed in the 40's with a lot of what is being used now developed in the 60's and 70's.

2. the leadership of the israeli military, in the begining, came from the british and the russian armies. several well known founders were assosiated with britsh camandos. it is possible, but not documented, that there were russian camandos who came to israel after wwii, joined the israeli army and incorporated parts of the system into krav maga

3. what is more likly is that since the 80's a few hundred ex soviet spetz guys have immigrated to israel, some of them have gotten involved in krav, and this could have been responsible for the cross "contamination"

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#153953 - 07/31/05 02:03 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: globetrotter]
Boomer Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 304
Loc: York, Pa
Quote:

In August 1986, the Soviet Union renewed contacts with Israel for the first time since severing diplomatic relations immediately following the June 1967 War.




It seems that though the Soviets and Israelis were talking again, everything, shall we say, was not "kosher"

Quote:

Despite its renewed contacts with Israel, the Soviet Union continued to support the PLO and the Palestinian cause through military training and arms shipments. Moscow also used various front organizations, such as the World Peace Council, to wage propaganda campaigns against the Israeli regime in international forums.





This is straight from the US Library of Congress, and here's a link to aid your timeline.

http://countrystudies.us/israel/109.htm

History is a curious thing, and it's good to know your roots. Also remember though, that history is written by the victors.
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#153954 - 08/01/05 04:16 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Boomer]
Mtripp Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 25
Well, I have siad this before, and it always brings me a great deal of heat. But, once more unto the breech,

I was in the Army, my job was to understand what the Soviets were going to do to us, or at least try. I can show you lots of stuff about Sambo, but this "systema" thing I never heard of in any context.

The first I heard of it was in the comic's. Batman had an opponent called "The KGBeast" who used "The system" to defeat his opponents.

I have seen their tapes, including the VERY silly "troopa", and seen the demo live in Toronto at the LeBell Grapling event.

I thinkj I can safely say there is no connection to Krav Maga.

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#153955 - 08/01/05 06:20 PM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: Mtripp]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania
I have done some digging and have not found a connection either.
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"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

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#153956 - 08/13/05 08:49 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: modernwarrior]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

I have watched and practiced a little bit of both styles and all it seemed was like glorified street fighting very practical if i might add. But what is the difference between the Russian Martial Arts(Systema) and Krav Maga? They bolth are very practical and usefull.




Aside from the fact that they are both taught to their respective militaries, there's no connection.

Systema or "Russian Martial Art" (note how "art" is singular--a Russian phenomenon) has all kinds of whacky stuff in it, that supposedly dates back to earlier periods in Russian history. If I recall correctly, the entire sambo (the Russian synthesis of judo and various indigenous Eurasian wrestling styles) syllabus is also a part of Systema.

Krav Maga, on the other hand, looks pretty much like most other conventional modern military combatives, like Fairbairn's defendu, etc (and hence one wonders why there's even a need for a separate forum on this stuff).
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#153957 - 08/13/05 08:55 AM Re: Krav Vs. Systema [Re: fattts14]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

It does take it's routes from ancient Russia and basicly took the best of all the fighting styles they encountered through all of history (like when the mongols envaded, ancient battles with the turks and persians, etc.) and narrowed it down to the most effective and deadly moves.




Prove it.

I suspect that the Systema claim you mention above is pure nonsense (Moderators edit for language).

And, if it isn't, then all I can say is that the Mongol Conquest and Occupation of Mother Russia must have been the all-time low point for Systema development.

Certainly, Systema didn't help the local boyars against the Mongol Horde one bit.


Edited by RangerG (08/16/05 02:13 PM)
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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