Excellent post Kempoman! I agree with pretty much everything you said, except on the no touch KOs.

The no touch KO has been blown way out of proportion by people who`ve seen clips of it on the net.
BaguaMonk I have yet to see someone from the DKI (which Tom Cameron as far as I know isn`t) saying that the NTKO is used in self defense.

The NTKO may not be useful in self defense, but it isn`t BS. It just shows what the human mind can do. I found the link that Gavin gave very interesting and I agree with much that was said there. Someone said something interesting: "If it works from the distance, great. If it doesnt`t you`re fighting anyway".

Anyway the NTKOs don`t work on everyone, but that doesn`t mean they don`t work at all. They are easy to do on people who are very sensitive to energy, and not so easy or "impossible" to do on others. And yes they can be resisted. If someone doesn`t want to be KO without touch he won`t be. But hey, pressure points can be resisted too (to some level).

Here`s a clip of my sensei doing a NTKO. And for the record, he never said that it can be used in self defense, quite the opposite actually. www.rksi.net
Look at the guy being KOed, that doesn`t look fake to me.
Not all people fall because they want to please their teacher or something, they fall because it works.

And heres another clip of the NTKO: www.rksi.net
The person being KOed is a reporter for the Slovenian Playboy and didn`t believe in the NTKO at first.

This is what he wrote about it: "How had this happened? He settled his left hand near my neck and his right hand above my forehead.
For first few seconds nothing happened, I just stood there, monitoring his hand above me. I started to
think: »Well, jedi knight, having a bad day?« Then suddendly my vision blurred. Now what? I focus
and concetrate, but then I started to feel light tingeling in my knees, which interfered with my balance.
On top of it my vision beganc to crackle again. I regroup my balance and put my vision to order again.
With great suprise I discover that I had leaned back consideraby. How come? I straighten myself, but
my knees began to buckle and my field of vision narrowed rapidly. I thought to myself: »If I punch him
in the face, he will stop meddling with me!« But to my astonishment I couldn't move a single muscle on
my body, lest to hit him hard in the face. Remeber that sleepy feeling you got every morning when you
woke up? Well, I felt exactly the same. You are completly aware of everything: you can see, hear and
feel things around you, and yet you cannot move. My mind inquired my body about its stasus and
quickly come to the final decision: »You're going down, man!«. I came up with a symbolic resistance
for the last time, and then was overwhelmed with my body function's resignations. I fell down. And all
that from a man, who didn't even touched me!."
Here`s the entire article if anyone is interested: www.rksi.net

Anyway, IMVHO NTKOs aren`t meant for self defense (at least not yet, maybe in some distant future) but they do work. If you don`t believe in them fine, if you do, fine as well.

Oh and something else. Dillman never created a separate system of kyusho (or dim mak) as far as I know. Everyone at the DKI always said that kyusho jitsu is a theory that is incorporated in the MAs (or it is already in them), it is NOT a system all by itself.

Kosh,

Thanks for the reesponse and...

Quote:

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Oh and something else. Dillman never created a separate system of kyusho (or dim mak) as far as I know. Everyone at the DKI always said that kyusho jitsu is a theory that is incorporated in the MAs (or it is already in them), it is NOT a system all by itself.

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You are correct, but I was not speaking about George on this point. I was talking about KI (Evan).

I will give you my opinion on what is happening with those two NTKO's that you posted after the weekend. I don't have time right now as I am leaving to go and move to a new house this weekend. But suffice it to say this was the one I was speaking of in my earlier post. It does work but it is not chi that causes the reaction.

Kempoman

Haha, actually I was thinking about BaguaMonks post when writing that, lol.

I`m looking forward to hear your explanation, but I think I might already know what you`ll say. This might be an interesting debate (or then again, it might not be) .

Sorry for the delay in replying my connection at home has been down all weekend so I've had to wait until I come into work. (Off topic, but I came into the office to find 3 Russell Stutely DVD's and Mike Patricks latest book arrived! What a start to the day!)!

Kosh, I'd love to experience being put out like that. The thread that I posted went into a bit of a debate on the worthiness of actually researching this further as a Martial subject. Too me personally (from a point of ignorance ofcourse) I think I'd rather persue my PP's in actual combat study over this NTKO stuff. Just seems a little bit too much Jedi'ish for any real benefits. Any opinions?

Kempoman, could you recomend any books for the layman. I bought an NLP book a while back, but that went way over my simple head. I think the NLP stuff would seriously help in my role as a doorman (bouncer).

Gav

In my opinion, you`ve got to study whatever interests you the most. Although I do agree with you that the NTKO doesn`t have that many benefits and that for actual combat study it is definetly better to study pressure points.

But for myself... I was alway interested in the "energy stuff", it`s what sort of makes me tick. So I know that in the future (and now) this will be the direction of my studies.

The NTKO is sort of a higher level in MA, like PP. First you have to learn the basics, learn how to defend yourself without the use of PP. Then you add PP to your techniques. And then... I like the term "players to the game". As you progress in training you just begin to add more and more players (like PP, sound, color, wave forms...).

The reason I don't believe that alot of these Kempo instructors can do NTKO is because they seem to have almost no real internal training background. Taiji doesn't claim to do anything mystical, it is those who know nothing about it that tend to make such generalizations. It would take an infinitely long amount of time to develop the necessary Chi and awareness to knock somebody out from such a long distance. And it wouldn't be by using a Hadouken either (you saw his hands). I just think too many people run on this "Dim Mak" bandwagon, and honestly its making alot of MMA's and traditionalists think of these people, and the traditional arts as a joke. Dian Xue was another way of saying the same thing. method of doing somethign similar, it was used exctensively in Chin na (tiger/eagle claw). Really Dim Mak was the term that meant finger pressing/stabbing the points, but the way it is incorporated into some Karate/Kempo systems seems a little ridiculous nowdays. Hitting 100lbs women/teenagers who don't even defend themselves. Remember that clip of the dude catching a kick a couple inches below his groin and then doing something else that was equally stupid to take down his opponent. When I saw them doing Kata's (the school in the video), as well as techniques, I saw no aliveness, no intensity, just running through the routines. It seems like a gimmick/selling point more than anything nowdays.

The truth is, that traditional gong fu systems wouldn't teach the more precise applications of Dim Mak like strikes because it took a long time to develop sufficient power to really make it effective, hardly anyone trustworthy reached that level anyways. Sure there are the big obvious ones that will hurt and knock out anyone, but alot of them take some serious physical and spiritual conditioning to be able to use correctly.

BaguaMonk not to disrespect you, but I personally will still remain a non-believer until I feel first hand. But, I don't have any internal training experience to base this on, just my untrusting skeptical instincts. I remember when my Dad first starting talking PP's after his first Dillman course years ago, I was a like "Yeah right!"......A couple of finger presses later and a bit of pain, it's "!#%!ing let go, I'm convinced!". So hopefully one day, when I wake up from a NTKO, I'll be suitably converted (and a $1000 lighter!)

I do agree about the intensity with which most stuff is done these days. I went to a club once and we started to the basics, I was motoring through getting really strange looks from the rest of the club. 2 hours later after basics, kata, and sparring (ha that was fun!) at my pace the bastards started getting the matts out. I was very very sore the next day. We've recently had some of our guys grade with them, and the level of difference in terms of intenisty and actually fighting spirit was off the scales.

I have personally tried to avoid using any terms with regards to the pressure point teaching, Dim Mak, Kysho, Tuite etc, I just teach when the x technique comes at you, you hit the face, neck, or for the advanced guys you can hit Stomach x, Bladder y etc. Then I go round and delight in the pleasure of hurting (ooops, demonstrating) to the higher grades the correct angle and direction of the points. On a side note, am I just a sick puppy, but does anyone else love seeing people skirm around in pain from a light touch????

Kosh, I love the idea of the players to the game. They provide an extremely structured way of introducing quite complex theories in nice digestable chunks. I've just started playing around with the wave forms, I really look like a prat swinging my hips around and waving. As I said I'm not really interested in pursuing the NTKO, partly because of the fact that I don't know what I'm doing and secondly because I'm extremely skeptical. I'm really interested in the B.A.R player at the moment, as a doorman this is going to yield the most usefulliness I think.

For the purpose of this post I will be referencing the NTKO that was linked to in an earlier post by Kosh where the hands are around the forehead and jaw areas.

This NTKO will cause the subject to lose balance and stumble backward and usually fall down. They are typically disoriented and unbalanced for about thirty seconds afterward.

I have repeated this NTKO on several subjects with the same effect. However, I do not attempt to project any kind of qi. What I have found is that the placement and movement of the hand near the forehead is key.

The hand should be placed directly in front of one of the eyes and the movement should include a in-out motion as well as a motion that twists the palm.

What I think is happening is that the subjects equilibrium is being messed with. The motion hand covering the eye causes a error in depth perception and also is a suggestion for the body to begin this same motion.

The effects of the NTKO are the same as the symptoms of a loss of equilibrium. To me it is nothing more than a magic trick, a good one, but still a trick.

I have used the same type of logic and discovery to unveil the secret behind the "unbendable arm" trick. Itself nothing more than a relaxation of the bicep (which bends the arm, or keeps is bent) and an engaging the tricep (which straightens the arm or keeps it straight).

Your comments are welcome.


Kempo(shaving with occam's razor)man

Shouldn't that be Kempo(preacher)man.

Kempoman, I think that is a good explanation and it may be true, but I`m not sure.

You said that the motion hand causes an error in depth perception. But what if the eyes are closed, how can it cause error in depth perception then? And what if the hand isn`t moving?

In my two attepmts of the NTKO that had some effect, the persons I was doing the KO on had closed eyes. And next to that I didn`t move any of my hands.
After I asked what they felt, they both said that they lost balance. One also said that his heart began to beat faster and the other one got a slight headache.

Some people don`t just feel disoreinted and fall down because of it, but because they completely lose counsciusnes (sp?), like I think the person in the first clip did. How do you explain that?

I haven`t been trying any NTKO for quite some time, but I think I will be experimenting with them in the near future again.
I will also try what you said, to do the NTKO without projecting qi. I think that it will be an interesting experiment.

But even if it will work without projecting qi, it still wont prove to me that you can`t do the NTKO with qi projection.

I have also seen the NTKO (not the same as in the clips I posted) done through a curtain, where the none of the participants could see each other. How would you explain this NTKO?

That`s really interesting what you said about the unbendable arm. Do you have any more of such discoveries?

Thanks for the replies Kempo(explaining)man.