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#153636 - 06/30/05 02:57 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: GSD]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Quote:

You really have no need to know the name of my Sensei.




This is simple, if you have nothing to hide, if your not lying about anything you have posted here then there is NO reason not to say whom your instructor is. This is a typical response form those with something to hide.

Quote:

As far as projecting energy goes, I'm sorry but I think it is you that should rethink things and find a new instructor.




I tell you what. You show me one instructor that can actually do NTKOs under a controlled test and i will be more than happy to study with them. The FACT is no one claiming this ability has been able to perform it on anyone other than their students and associates.

Quote:

My Sensei s' touchless ko s' were from several inches away.




On whom did he do these KOs? What proof do you have to support these rediculous claims? Energy projection of this kind is not possible.

Quote:

He is a very honest man that never held us back from entering other styles of study.




This doesn't excuse the fact that the things you claim he is teaching are nothing more than tricks that have nothing to do with energy transfer. As i said before your instructor may very well be the victim of a fraud himself.

Quote:

You do know Funakoshi , right?




Since you’re new i'm going to ignore this ridiculous implication.

Quote:

Now, let me ask you a question. Have you been able to break 5 pcs of 2" thick concrete with a palm strike that only travels 4 to 5"? Okay, how about breaking an uncracked coconut with a palm strike that travels only 12"?




How would this prove the NTKO is possible? You see i don't test my training by beating up bricks and coconuts. I know my training works because i've actually used my training to defend myself both here in the states and overseas. As for the coconut breaking, it's a gimmick. Ask Kempoman, he can break them and even tell you how it's done. Granted i believe he has said it does take some conditioning but from what i remember it has nothing to do with energy transfer.

Quote:

Here's a little test for you to try if you so desire. Set a stack of cinder blocks up so you can place 3 pcs. of 2" thick concrete on top of each other. No spacers please. Now, do a palm strike on them. Breaking the stack is not the goal. The goal is to break only the one on the bottom.




Again with the breaking bits. They are tricks to wow the gullible.

Quote:

Now , I do feel the need to say I am sorry if I appear rude. After all, being polite is one of the best self-defense techniques there is.




As well you should. At no point did i attack you personally. I also did not attack your instructor. I have attacked your beliefs, which if you have any concrete proof you should have no trouble proving me wrong. Somehow i seriously doubt it will happen considering you have said NOTHING different than anyone before you. Repeating "yes i can, yes i can" doesn't mean you are right. You however have made a few implications regarding my level of knowledge, which is a personal attack. Feel free to read some of my old posts, i've lain out my experiences and training quite often.

Quote:

It does upset me when I come across people with closed minds.




This again. How am i the one with the closed mind? Because i don't blindly believe in the same unproven nonsense as you? Am i close minded because i require proof of such outrageous claims before i commit my time and energy training with such a technique? Or are you the one who is closed minded because you are unable to see the fact that you might be getting conned? Your blind devotion to an ideal or concept that can only be proven within the environment of your choosing and can't stand up to ANY true tests is what makes you close minded. Being open minded isn't the blind belief that anything is possible; it's the ability to gather information from both sides of the argument before making your decision. I have done this and in the years i've been training EVERY person who claimed they could do a NTKO has failed when asked to perform it on someone other than a student or associate.

Quote:

Not to overuse an old saying but, "The mind is like a parachute , it only works when it is open".




By blindly following your instructor and not asking questions of both him and others you are being closed minded. You are the one whose chute has failed to open because you refuse to recognize that the facts are stacked against you here.

Quote:

I say to you believe what you want , it's your right, but don't tell someone they should rethink things and find a new instructor.




Me telling you to rethink things is the same as telling you to open your mind. Finding another instructor doesn't mean leaving the one you have all together. It means find another perspective and open your chute.

Quote:

When you say things like that it makes you sound like you only read the fighting part of the book and ignored the part on proper behavior.




Before you put your foot in your mouth you should really read through things again. As i said before i've made no personal attacks, unlike you. If suggesting you open your mind and educate yourself is rude then i'm guilty. The simple fact is i will not allow this type of misinformation to be spread on any forum that i moderate. Until you can produce valid proof of such techniques it will not be allowed here. Pressure point work is serious and valid part of the martial arts but because of the numerous frauds claiming NTKO's and five point exploding heart techniques it's rarely taken seriously or practiced seriously.

GSD you have two tasks ahead of you here. Tell us who your instructor is that is able to perform the NTKOs and provide proof that they work and are a result of energy transfer. If you are telling the truth then these two things should be very easy. Do that and you can talk about NTKOs all you want. Until then stick to PP discussions or they will be removed.

P.S. If your instructor can do a NTKO, why hasn't he attempted the million dollar challenge? Let me guess, no need for the money, no desire to give it to charity, doesn't want to show off, no need to prove anything? Those are the most common, choose one or make up you own.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#153637 - 06/30/05 11:31 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: GSD]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Duuuude...chiiill.

Quote:

Sir,
You were the Rep. for DKI in Texas?

GSD.




I was but I am no longer. Haven't been in quite a while. As far as I know there has not been one since I left.

Why?

and

I think that you are completely missing Lane's point. He is not attacking your style, abilities or actual training that you have received (actually this type of question is one he asks to almost everyone). He is challenging you on your beliefs about energy-transfer at a distance and NTKO's. You seem to have taken it for something that it was not. If he is a little rude or touchy on the subject it is very understandable due to having to deal with an almost non-stop influx of idiots on this and the Energy Arts forums that insist on being able to fire chi-balls, jing-blasts and kamehamaeha attacks. I know, I used to moderate both of these forums.


That being said I have no idea why you would have a problem with naming your instructor, it still would leave you anonymous.

BTW I can do all the same breaks without projecting chi. (I can even liquify the inside of a watermelon!)

I have studied (and achieved) Lacy's Iron Palm, Springy Palm, Burning Palm etc as well as Gray's Iron Palm method.

The coconut is not bad after the proper conditioning and is a genuine (fair) break. The others are just physics, much like breaking hundreds of pounds of ice.

None of this however has anything to do with energy-transfer at a distance. You instructor could be $1,000 dollars richer if he can NTKO me and $1,000,000 richer if he can demonstrate it in a controlled evironment during a scientific test.

Oh yes and welcome to the forums, we are so use to the 13 yr-old DBZ/Ninjutsu master making life hell here we sometimes forget our manners.

Debate is never bad, extraordinary claims must be supported with extraordinary evidence. There are several skeptics here and we love to see ourselves type.

-KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#153638 - 06/30/05 04:49 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: laf7773]
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
GSD I am curiuos about what DSI inforamtion you have issue with. I find they tend to be far from the DKI and KI approach.

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#153639 - 06/30/05 08:01 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
Okay, I'm chilled out and I do apologize for jumping the gun.
My original post was coming from a person that had been ko 'd not just someone that had watched a video. I know Lane said it was never sucessful on him. Even with pressure point ko s there are always some people that are resistant.Some people don't feel some common attacks to pressure points.Anyone that has worked pressure points has seen this.
I'm not trying to make excuses. It is the same as some people can take a good shot to the jaw and others are ko'd by the same shot.
Like I said before the touchless worked on me. I didn't fall down pretending. Whatever it was that he did ,it worked.
We never tried or even talked about shooting "Chi-balls or fire balls from our hands. I don't remember ever saying anything like that.The Chi Ball exercise was to bring chi into the hands for healing purposes. I know, if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able to do damage.
I did say that even though I'd been ko'd with a touchless I find some of these things a bit much to digest.
As far as the breaks go , I never did any special conditioning on my hands. No oils before or after.No slapping sand or gravel.
With the coconut breaks , I bought a coconut with no cracks , set it on the ground and broke it. I also had some success with level 2. If there are any tricks involved , they weren't done by me because I didn't know them.
Thanks for setting me straight on the direction Lane was coming from.
GSD.

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#153640 - 06/30/05 08:09 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: kempocos]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
I have no problems with the DSI or DKI orgs. . The info. I got from them helped improve my technique. They are nice people and always willing to help.

GSD.

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#153641 - 06/30/05 09:17 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: laf7773]
GSD Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 14
I offer my apology for the attack.I hope you accept it. I didn't understand where you were coming from. I guess I demonstrated how narrow my thinking can be at times.
I'm sorry if I came off like the others with the touchless ko. My original post was just to say it had been done on me and it worked. That's all.
I can't prove it was "Chi" and I can't disprove it. I can only say that it put me down and I really don't think it was the power of suggestion that did it.

I've never claimed to be able to do them , I've never even tried.
Now I'm not trying to be a wise guy but as far as my instructor goes ,I don't think he cares to Prove himself to anybody no matter how much money is involved.Besides , he is retired. It does surprise me that the many active people claiming to be able to do them haven't stepped forward.

GSD.

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#153642 - 07/01/05 02:30 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: GSD]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I do come across a bit harsh at times but you have to understand my position. Make a run through some of the old threads in this section and the energy arts section and you will see why. I am a firm disbeliever in the NTKO, chiblast and other techniques like this for a very good reason. I've been training for 23 years and have circled the globe 4 times visiting 11 countries, not to mention the number of cities i've visited while in service. In that time and travel i've met a LOT of martial artists and so called "masters" and i've met several who made these exact claims and used these same tricks. None have been able to prove any of their claims under controlled circumstances.

I'm not one of these people who have any kind of resistance to energy work or pressure points as Scott can tell you. He's put me on the floor a few times in the past using PP techniques.

As far as your experience with the NTKO and it working on you. The power of suggestion is strong. I don't know exactly what it is he does or how he is conducting his NTKO but i would be fairly certain that there is some trick to it and it has nothing to do with energy transfer.

On the point of none of the numerous people claiming to be able to perform a NTKO not stepping forward to prove it. There is a good reason for this. In order to maintain the illusion of their skill they must maintain their set controls. Just like no good magician is going to let anyone dictate how he performs his tricks, these "masters" aren't going to allow someone to set controls for them as it will break the illusion. You will notice that during seminars these people may attempt a technique and fail, when they do they will quickly change the subject and find another volunteer. This is if they are even using volunteers, some will only use their students. Many don't have a problem doing seminars because they know the only people willing to shell out money to see this stuff are people with similar beliefs who may be willing to exaggerate an experience if only to not offend the instructor.

In some cases like you, you may not even realize why you are going down. How would you feel though if i told you Scott was capable of doing NTKOs with you knowing he has a similar background as your instructor (dki), then have him perform a NTKO the same way as your instructor and get the same results (you go down). Only to have him later tell you the way he did it was a trick and had nothing to do with energy transfer. Would you then start to wonder why Scott had the same result if he didn't use energy transfer?

There is also the practicality of it. IF this technique were possible, what use would it be? Look at the Yellow bamboo guys. They claimed similar "skill" and were proven frauds. People making these claims will always set limitations on the technique. It's understandable that all techniques have limitations but these limitations shouldn't include things like geographic location or the fact that the "victim" isn't part of the organization or a friend of the instructor.

With that i hope you can understand why i restrict the discussion in this forum to those things that have been somewhat proven. We all know PPs work, the debate is to what extent and how practical. I personally would LOVE to be able to render people unconscious with out touching them, it would come in real handy in my line of work. Unfortunately i have seen no supporting proof to this day. Everything i have seen only supports the contrary.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#153643 - 07/01/05 05:59 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: GSD]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
GSD, thank you for the reply and apologies for the delay in responding, I've been away on a business trip. This threads grown quite a bit since my last post so I hope I don't repeat anything.

The system I study is called Go So Kempo, unfortunatey we don't really know the origins of our system and how it came to be taught in the UK. My Dad took over as Chief instructor from a guy named John Doyle who was killed in an Motorcycle accident. Unfortunately Mr Doyle wasn't the most forth coming man regarding his own training history, when he died we lost all chance of tracing our roots. So I'm not too sure where our stuff come from. I've recently brought the Wave form DVD's by Russell Stutely and have found that they're something we've already been doing similar stuff in our techniques in one form or another for years. What I have found through actually practicing the Wave form excecises are that they are a wonderful way of isolating the motions used in generating power.

So to actually get to my point (sorry for the round the houses trip) alot of the stuff that I've read about as being 'internal', it seems that I'm already getting that affect by simply applying the proper body mechanics. I've actually read both Russell Stutely and other respected martial artists saying that they haven't seen anything that the internal school thought can do, that can't be replicated with the correct body mechanics. I hope this isn't off topic, but could someone either confirm or enlighten my dribble please!

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#153644 - 07/01/05 10:57 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: GSD]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Okay, I'm chilled out and I do apologize for jumping the gun.




No worries. As one can tell this subject is one that generates controversy and provokes an amost religious response in people on both sides. So again welcome.

Quote:

My original post was coming from a person that had been ko 'd not just someone that had watched a video. I know Lane said it was never sucessful on him. Even with pressure point ko s there are always some people that are resistant.Some people don't feel some common attacks to pressure points.Anyone that has worked pressure points has seen this.
I'm not trying to make excuses. It is the same as some people can take a good shot to the jaw and others are ko'd by the same shot.
Like I said before the touchless worked on me. I didn't fall down pretending. Whatever it was that he did ,it worked.





There are physiological reasons as to why it did. I can do two NTKO-looking thingys (that's a technical term) now that will cause the people to fall about 70% of the time. One is a based on a combination of sensitivity to to go syncope from standing too long in one position and a disturbance of the equilbrium.

The other works based on a preconditioned response that involves the amygdala (the amygdala serves as a simple Pavlovian learning machine that associates aversive events with neutral events).

I started working with this idea after watching some of the DKI and KI people doing a new type of demonstration where they allow the person to actually hit them in the stomach a few times and then of the last one they do a 'magic chi blast' and the suject falls like they were hit by a car. Allowing the subject to make contact puts them in a certain frame of mind and then on the next attempt the demonstrator unexpectedly yells and makes a motion toward like an attack. This causes the amygdala to take over (just like when I see a spider and scream like a little sissy-boy, even if there is a sexy lady watching)
and the response is automatic. It is a NTKD(own) but has nothing at all to do with qi.

It does not need to be mystical to work. What is not happening is any sort of energy project at a distance.


Quote:

We never tried or even talked about shooting "Chi-balls or fire balls from our hands. I don't remember ever saying anything like that.The Chi Ball exercise was to bring chi into the hands for healing purposes. I know, if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able to do damage.




I think you meant if one doesn't believe in being able to do damage they won't believe in being able heal. If so, then I disagree. What I said and continue to say is that there is no chance to project energy at (or across) a distance. I practice energetic healing and have been worked on by some really great people. Now, I don't think that you can cure cancer with it but pain relief and such I feel do work.

Quote:

I did say that even though I'd been ko'd with a touchless I find some of these things a bit much to digest.




As well you should, but question the explanation and look for the root cause (like above).

Quote:

As far as the breaks go , I never did any special conditioning on my hands. No oils before or after.No slapping sand or gravel.
With the coconut breaks , I bought a coconut with no cracks , set it on the ground and broke it. I also had some success with level 2. If there are any tricks involved , they weren't done by me because I didn't know them.




There are tricks that can be done with the coconut, but I will not reveal them here and start a rash of coconut breaking masters.

Also, you hands must be fairly hard to hit the coconut without doing the conditioning work. The first time I attempted the break (pre-conditioning) my hand was purple for about 2 weeks. The thing about Lacy's Internal Iron Palm training (no matter what one may think of Lacy himself) allows the hands to be conditioned without and detrimental side-effects.
This is important to me because I play the guitar and am a magician.


Quote:

Thanks for setting me straight on the direction Lane was coming from.
GSD.




Just be thankful that Lane is moderating now, I used to be a pr!ck.

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#153645 - 07/01/05 12:22 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: JoelM]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
JoelM, I did rethink and I still think I`m not a sucker or gullable. I may be misinformed, but I don` think so. Though I`m not sure what you mean by misinformed.
You could pose the same kind of questions to a couple billion people on Earth that believe in god.

GSD, I`ve never heard of James Lacy (I think). Who is he and can you reccomend some books?

Kempoman have you ever read "The end of time" by Jiddu Krishnamurti and David Bohm? Hard book to read, but if I remember correctly, in it Krishnamurti says something about wanting to be greater, to be better, to be something else is the cause of suffering.

Kempoman I think you`re talking about sound KOs? An interesting explanation, but what is an amygdala?

Quote:

just like when I see a spider and scream like a little sissy-boy, even if there is a sexy lady watching




Lol
That happened to me at school once, a spider appeared out of nowhere on my knee. I jumped and screamed and tryed to get it off me. Damned spiders lol.

I think the debate in this thread was pretty good and "civilized" in comparison to some other threads (here or on other forums).
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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