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#153606 - 06/15/05 08:53 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: BaguaMonk]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Hi BaguaMonk.

What do you consider real internal training to be? I think that every kempo instructor does some form of qigong, and I think some of them also practice taiji (I don`t know to what level though).

Taiji is in a way a kata and we have lots of those (although not so flowing and beatiful). I think that through katas you can train your internal power, although maybe not in the same way or to the same level as in taiji.
I wouldn`t know because the taiji taught in my town is meant more or less only for health (and I doubt they apply any of the principles that I`ve seen posted here and read about) and that alone doesn`t interest me anymore.

Quote:

The truth is, that traditional gong fu systems wouldn't teach the more precise applications of Dim Mak like strikes because it took a long time to develop sufficient power to really make it effective, hardly anyone trustworthy reached that level anyways. Sure there are the big obvious ones that will hurt and knock out anyone, but alot of them take some serious physical and spiritual conditioning to be able to use correctly.




I think that I agree with you here. In my opinion there are at least two levels on which you can effect a PP. The first IMO would be the physical, where you are actually striking nerves (which are IMO the physical manifestation of the meridians). The second one would be more "energetical" or "spiritual", where you would effect the meridian (and chi) directly, and requieres more internal training.

EDIT: LOL at the groin kick defense. We have a clip of it on our site also, but it is for demonstrational purposes only. Who in his right mind would try to catch a groing kick with his legs? If nothing else the clip show that PP can have an amazin effect. The guy is out completely .

Hi Gavin.
We do B.A.R. at our school too. I think it is great in preparing you for real life situations. It gets you tired very fast too.
EDIT: Haha, I like to see people in great pain with my minimal effort too , does that makes us sadists ?


Edited by Kosh (06/15/05 09:06 AM)
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153607 - 06/15/05 09:07 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kosh]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

We do B.A.R. at our school too. I think it is great in preparing you for real life situations. It gets you tired very fast too.




Can't wait to put the head gear and gloves on for the BAR training! Tried the Wave form stuff, spent hours yesterday waving my hands round like a prat. After 18 years, you'd think it be easy wouldn't ya!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#153608 - 06/15/05 12:01 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Originally posted by Gavin

Kempoman, could you recomend any books for the layman. I bought an NLP book a while back, but that went way over my simple head. I think the NLP stuff would seriously help in my role as a doorman (bouncer).




The books on the subject are usually just some wanker wanting to show how many big words that he knows. We can have a private e-mail conversation about it.



Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

Kempoman, I think that is a good explanation and it may be true, but I`m not sure.

You said that the motion hand causes an error in depth perception. But what if the eyes are closed, how can it cause error in depth perception then? And what if the hand isn`t moving?

In my two attepmts of the NTKO that had some effect, the persons I was doing the KO on had closed eyes. And next to that I didn`t move any of my hands.
After I asked what they felt, they both said that they lost balance.

One also said that his heart began to beat faster and the other one got a slight headache.





The body in a constant state of trying to maintain balance. We are always making minor corrections in posture and alignment as well as weight distribution. When we close our eyes and attempt to stand still (as seen in the cases of the NTKO) for an
extended period of time these corrections become more exaggerated. Some are more susceptible to feeling faint or fainting so that the length of time seen in a typical NTKO is sufficient for this to happen. Increased heart rate, dizzyness are both signs of this type of syncope.

If you find that someone is susceptible to the NTKO (with the eyes closed) then test them again (with the eyes closed) but don't let them know you aren't doing anything. Just stand there like you are. See if the same symptoms occur in the subject around the same time invervals.




Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

Some people don`t just feel disoreinted and fall down because of it, but because they completely lose counsciusnes (sp?), like I think the person in the first clip did. How do you explain that?




With occam's razor. Syncope.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

But even if it will work without projecting qi, it still wont prove to me that you can`t do the NTKO with qi projection.




That is an interesting point. What evidence would it take to convince you that these NTKO are nothing more than either naturally occuring phenomena or entirely fake or a combination of both.


Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh

I have also seen the NTKO (not the same as in the clips I posted) done through a curtain, where the none of the participants could see each other. How would you explain this NTKO?




Whether you are standing behind a curtain, door or even a steel door has no effect on whether or not you are sensitve to fainting from standing in one place for too long.

Quote:

Orignally posted by Kosh

That`s really interesting what you said about the unbendable arm. Do you have any more of such discoveries?




Kosh, I find most things in this category can be explained by body mechanics or some natural body function or design. Remember that extraoridnary claims require extraordinary evidence and that it is impossible to prove a negative.

In other words I can't prove that the pink elephant does not exist. It is up to the person making the claim that the pink elephant exists to produce the evidence required to satisfy the claim.

What you can do is to scientifically explore and test to seek evidence.

Rich Mooney (one of most well known exponents of Ling Kong Jing, powerful empty force) claimed to be able to move people with his qi. He was tested via the scientific method and the results were abysmal. There is a $1,000,000 prize for anyone who can demostrate in a controlled setting a paranormal ability. So far no one has even come close. Many have tried and have had there special power leave them when all variables are controlled.

I can do wonders right in front of your eyes becuase I am a magician, but when placed in a controlled setting I will fail to amaze.




Quote:

Originally posted by Kosh
What do you consider real internal training to be? I think that every kempo instructor does some form of qigong, and I think some of them also practice taiji (I don`t know to what level though).




This in itself is not internal training. I also am a student of xingyiquan a chinese internal martial art. There is much more to internal training than just qigong and 'energy'. Head on over to the Energy Arts section and dig through some of the posts for a good idea about what internal training is.
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#153609 - 06/15/05 12:47 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

The books on the subject are usually just some wanker wanting to show how many big words that he knows. We can have a private e-mail conversation about it.




I've gotta feeling bumping into you is going to be an amusing and enlightening experience. I'll look forward to the conversation!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#153610 - 06/16/05 12:34 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

I've gotta feeling bumping into you is going to be an amusing and enlightening experience. I'll look forward to the conversation!




I'll send an initial e-mail in the next day or so. Things have been a bit crazy while we get the new house in order.

I look forward to the conversation.

--K
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#153611 - 06/17/05 07:04 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Cheers mate!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#153612 - 06/17/05 11:16 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Quote:

That is an interesting point. What evidence would it take to convince you that these NTKO are nothing more than either naturally occuring phenomena or entirely fake or a combination of both.




Hmm, that is really an interesting point after I thought about it, because I probably can`t be convinced. To me this would just show that a person can fall down because of corrections in posture. It doesn`t show that people can`t fall down because of qi.

I don`t know, I think I`m too much a believer to be convinced otherwise. I will definitly try what you suggest in the future.

On the NTKO through a curtain, both persons were sitting on the floor with crossed legs.

Quote:

This in itself is not internal training. I also am a student of xingyiquan a chinese internal martial art. There is much more to internal training than just qigong and 'energy'. Head on over to the Energy Arts section and dig through some of the posts for a good idea about what internal training is.




That`s why I asked. I consider internal training, training of my internal energy. I haven`t got any experience with an internal MA like taiji, so I wouldn`t know what is considered internal training by an internal martial artist.

What is NLP? I mean, what uses does it have? Can it be used in MA?
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153613 - 06/17/05 11:28 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kosh]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Hmm, that is really an interesting point after I thought about it, because I probably can`t be convinced. To me this would just show that a person can fall down because of corrections in posture. It doesn`t show that people can`t fall down because of qi.




It is also doesn't show that people can't fall down because of...


...Little pink Elephants
...Quarks
or even 'The Force'

See my point?

Quote:

I don`t know, I think I`m too much a believer to be convinced otherwise. I will definitly try what you suggest in the future.




Just try and control as many elements as possible, and look at what is really happening.



Quote:

What is NLP? I mean, what uses does it have? Can it be used in MA?




Neurolinguistic Programming. It has many uses, and many within MA training.

--K
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#153614 - 06/17/05 11:52 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Quote:

It is also doesn't show that people can't fall down because of...


...Little pink Elephants
...Quarks
or even 'The Force'

See my point?




I see your point, lol. But what`s wrong with The Force? Are you saying it doesn`t exist?

I actually have a book about NLP on my computer, but I completely forgot I have untill today. I never checked it out, but it looks interesting
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153615 - 06/17/05 02:01 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kosh]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Kosh,

You seem like an intellectually honest person so, let's try an experiment with the NTKO.

For the purposes of documenting the experiment it would be great if you could get it videotaped.

Here are my suggestions...

The Seutup


You will need two groups of people for this experiment.

The first group would include students, known responders to the NTKO and others in this category.

The second group would include people with no information at all about qi, the NTKO or even martial arts if possible.

I think that there should be five people in each group.

Make up three index cards with the following values on them:

1) Hands up with qi projection

2) Hands up no qi projection

3) Hands down


The Work

Each subject should be blindfolded (or a curtain could be used) to the point of not being able to see what the performer is doing.

The index cards should be drawn out of a bowl or hat in a random fashion. The performer should follow the instructions on the card.

A specific amount of time should be allowed for each instruction and the same amount of time should be allocated to each one. Each of the subjects should be tested in this manner.


The groups should be controlled in the following manner:

The two groups should be tested independantly of each other (meaning no contact or sight until after both groups have been tested).

The subjects within each group should not speak to or see each other until they have been tested.

The performer should not give any cues or clues as to which instruction is being followed.


The Results


The results of each subject should be recorded on video if possible, if not then an independant panel of at least three judges should be used to record their findings.

If an independant panel (those who have no vested interest either way) is used then criteria must be established for them to mark 'Event' or 'Non Event' on cards corresponding to each subject and instruction.


These procedures should be repeated for the other group as well and the combination of results will give a more clear look into the actions and reasons for belief/non-belief in the NTKO.


Comments??


Oh yes, the force absolutely exists in a galaxy far, far away...

Kempo(Star Wars-geek)man
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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