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#153586 - 06/07/05 09:12 PM Funny video on Dillman student.
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Well I don't know about you guys, but I've been tired of these Dillman wannabes using a system that Dillman modified and made up by himself, to teach "Teh d3adly Dim Mak." It is not a seperate system, and it certaintly was not discovered by neither Kempo, nor karate people. Its been in Chinese martial arts for ages, but it has nothing to do with "touch." The "touch" is an example of internal stylists being able to use internal strikes at the pp's/vital areas to cause internal effects. Most Kempo instructors I have met are NOT masters, and have almost no "chi" training in their belts. So how can they do a touchless knockout? *which is bs anyways*
Every style of Gong fu teaches you to hit the vital areas of the body, with every applications, its not a secret, and its not a seperate system. Only difference is that masters of the old had extensive accupressure EXPERIENCE in healing, and in fighting. Unlike most Kempo instructors nowdays. Chi hardly flows through such stiff rigid movements anyways. And who the heck is going to let you use it while they stand and do nothing anyways, I don't know how people like this get away with it.

It seems like alot of it has to do with the power of suggestion, I remember long ago I was in a McDojo,whenever my "master" would demonstrate something, I would let him to do it (with resisting) and react more than I had to, when I think about it now, it had more to do with fear than nothing. Those who did resist found that what he did did not work, and he would often over do the technique on them just to teach them a lesson. I also realized he was a Kempo instructor.

Anyways here is the clip guys, I'm sure its old but I had to post it:
http://s47.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=24CPXE7QSD0OF0DS221R5UYDNK


Edited by BaguaMonk (06/07/05 09:21 PM)
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

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#153587 - 06/07/05 10:16 PM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: BaguaMonk]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Hmmmm....such things are always interesting to watch. If anything, it confirmed my opinion that those jujitsu guys sure are a tough bunch.

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#153588 - 06/08/05 12:42 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: BaguaMonk]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
"It is harder to ko athletic people."

Yes, well thankyou very much.I'll come see you if I need protection from little old ladies and children.

Dillman has some good theories and techniques,but not touch ko's are ridiculous!
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#153589 - 06/08/05 01:17 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: SANCHIN31]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
If it's the one with the female reporter, priceless!
_________________________
I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

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#153590 - 06/08/05 01:27 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Yeah, I love it when he hits her in the head!!

Only about 40% of people are succeptable, I wonder how those 40% knew to come to his classes.
_________________________
We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#153591 - 06/08/05 07:14 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: JoelM]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
This was a good piece of junk journalism. They obviously chose this story for it's entertainment value (like a waterskiing squirrel) that made the sensei look like a moron, and rightfully so for making such claims.
Despite their efforts to expose this guy as a fraud, there will be teens lining up outside his dojo to join after seeing that segment.

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#153592 - 06/08/05 11:33 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kintama]
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
DIM MAK , Kyusho same principles using Traditional Chinese Medicine to map how to do the most damage. Is there a point to this other than to show a clip that has been floating around the net for a LONGGGGGG time.

One out of shape instructor using a few teenagers as uke does not prove anything exept Tom Cameron (sp?) runs a crappy program.

It is simply using TCM to explain how to cause damage nothing mystical. IMHO Chi is nothing more than a balance in mind , breath and body to allow the max power from fluid movement. Then addd the targeting that MANY years of training provides and now you have what the program should be, not yellow - green belts learning KO's.

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#153593 - 06/08/05 11:38 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: BaguaMonk]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
See I knew that someone would bring this up and I would get dragged into something I have been wanting to avoid for the past six years or so.

This issue is so frustrating to me I almost can't spEAK ABOUT IT WITHOUT SHOUTing. Sorry, there that's better. First of all oas far as Tom Cameron's kyusho/tuite abilities go they are suspect and incomplete at best and nonexistant at worst. I do not doubt that he has some functional knowledge of the theories of TCM as thery apply to kyusho/tuite but as for actually being able to execute the techniques properly, well the video clip speaks for itself doesn't it.


Now dear reader this post is likely to run long, an I haven't written my opinion about this in a public forum before, it has always been in private correspondance.

Baguamonk is absolutely correct that this information (kyusho/tuite/dim mak) has always been a part of chinese arts, but it was always integral to the Okinawan sytems as well. Lately however, those who have been taught this information have seperated it from the essential teaching tools that make it possible to make these techniques second nature. This has caused a couple of MA generations that have the infromation but not the application or skills involved in order to make it work. Some have even gone so far as to seperate the entire thing into a style all its own. This has created a large group of people that are doing nothing more than monkey-see, monkey-do. The current wave of kyusho/tuite instructors don't have the ability to correctly apply this information let alone teach someone else how to do it. I usually surf the net for clips of KO's and techniques or go to a seminar here and there to see what's doin'. What I have found is that the techniques as applied by tori do not have the effects that are displayed by uke. The point selection is bad the angles and activation are not correct and the motion to transfer (flow, stance and body mechanics) is abysmal. In other words, the things that they are doing won't produce the effects that they are showing.

There are several reasons for this happening.

First, we have the loss of the understanding of the purpose of kata. Kata is THE vehicle by which this information is passed along. Everthing that is needed to train this information properly is included in the kata and I don't care how much book learnin' about TCM you have, if you don't understand and practice the kata you won't be able to apply the infomation. Even many of the older generation master instructor's (all of whom are the nicest people you would want to meet and hang out with) have separated kata practice from the application of kyusho/tuite. For years many of these master instructors were very adept at applying kyusho/tuite (although many were not) and people fell like stones. Due to many factors (like suggestion, willingness to please sensei and good old peer pressure) students began to fall for no reason. This has happened often enough to lull these teachers into a false sense of their abilities. Their form is bad, there is no transfer of energy and the basics of kyusho/tuite have been flung out of the window. Without the information contained in the kata they are doomed to this and much more. I remember when George first KO'd me back in 1992. We were in Jersey at a seminar (and off of a night of great karaoke, George does a mean James Brown) and I asked a question about a movement from a kata (I think the spearhand technique) and what it could be for. He spent a couple of minutes talking about the motions and the principles involved and then told me to attack him. I did and found myself in the middle of the finest combination of kyusho and tuite that I have ever experienced. I went out like a light bulb. Years later after the great kyusho depression was in full swing, he would just walk up a hit you and there would be little or no effect (other than what would normally be expected when getting smacked in the head). I have seen this same pattern in many of the leaders in all of the organizations and if these people have the infection what can you say for those who are on the fringes (here I speak of anyone who just goes to seminars and doesn't learn directly from a qualified teacher).

I have actually seen 'grandmasters' hitting harder and harder in a seminar setting when they are working with someone who doesn't fall when they sneeze at them. WTF are you doing hitting harder, why not just apply the principles and make it work.


Second, they now feel that anything that they do will make a person fall, and in the case of their students they are correct. It is fun to watch them scramble when they attempt to do this on someone who has no experience with this information or who has not yet been bought into their 'superman-sensei' egomania. The excuses are great and to the students sound valid, but the lay person and skeptics they are a poor attempt at rationalization.

"Wow, you've got great energy"
"You're too tense, loosen up"
"You're a natural, athlete!" or "You're naturally energtic"

as they move to grab one of their own students (leaving you alone for good), who falls like a stone.

It is to the point now that they believe so much on their own hype that they agree to give interviews on TV and fail miserably. Tom Cameron is not the only person who has had this happen. They are at fault for buying into the big lie, and their students are at fault for selling it to them. This has now even bled over into this nightmare of no-touch KO's. I really have to attempt to control my blood pressure with this one. This is the worst kind of crap I have ever seen. I have had many try this on me and it has absolutely no effect whatsoever. Others recount the same stories. Only kyusho 'homers' (someone for which the home team can do no wrong) actually fall, or buy into this at all.

There is one of the no-touch movements that can cause a person to fall backwards and become fairly disoriented but it has nothing to do with qi projection. It has everything to do with screwing up the equilibrium.

No touch knockouts are fake, entertaining perhaps but fake. I don't care who is doing them or who says they can do it they can not. I have even offered $1,000 of my own money to anyone who can KO me without touching me. No offers, go figure.

Lastly, they have seperated kyusho from tuite. This is absolute insanity. It can not be done. They are part of the same whole and when used in conjunction work everytime. I have not, not been able to KO anyone in the last five years. When you use the tools you don't need the excuses.


Kyusho/tuite KO's are ugly. They do not look like the tripe on that video clip. When you are in the grip of someone with a functional knowledge of kyusho/tuite you will know it and you will feel it.


Kempo(un-no-touchable)man
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#153594 - 06/10/05 04:28 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Kempoman]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Kempoman, that's a great post! Sounds like you got a bit of closure with that one too!

I went on a Dillman course in march and he made a few passing comments about this no touch stuff, which intrigued me to have a closer look at the subject. There's quite an extensive thread on the DSI forums which has some interesting comments by Sifu Rich Mooney. There is also some mention of the use NLP, and how they have been playing around with it. Russell Stutely has said that an NLP expert friend has been managing to put people out in under 3 seconds. In the UK, we currently have a Magician/Mentalist called Derren Brown performing some really weird stuff on members of the public using some incredible auto suggestive techniques, I've actually seen him live and he was superb. There are a few clips of him doing some of the tricks from his TV series. The pick pocketing one is brilliant!

From a personal point of view, I'm very very skepitical. I'll match Kempomans $1000 do someone who can knock me out using their energy alone. I can't say I'm really interested in pursuing these no-touch KO's, but I'm definately going to be looking into the NLP and speed hypnosis techniques when more information becomes available. Hope I haven't gone to far off topic.
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#153595 - 06/10/05 10:56 AM Re: Funny video on Dillman student. [Re: Gavin]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

Kempoman, that's a great post! Sounds like you got a bit of closure with that one too!




A bit. I used to be the DKI rep for Texas and I still love George and Kim. They are the most generous and hospitable people you could ever meet. Most of the other people in DKI are the same (with a few exceptions). This is why I have hesitated to state my opinion publicly, but the problem is so rampant now that there just ain't no keepin' quiet no more.


Quote:

I went on a Dillman course in march and he made a few passing comments about this no touch stuff, which intrigued me to have a closer look at the subject.




It is an interesting phenomenon but only in the way that the students and members buy into it so hard.


Quote:

There's quite an extensive thread on the DSI forums which has some interesting comments by Sifu Rich Mooney.




I'll go and check it out. From all I know Rich is a great martial artist and a nice person. However, when tested in a double blind experiment the 'empty force' failed to even register.


Quote:

There is also some mention of the use NLP, and how they have been playing around with it. Russell Stutely has said that an NLP expert friend has been managing to put people out in under 3 seconds.




I am also a magician/mentalist/certified hypnotherapist/master stage hypnotist and NLP is no joke. I have heard about the speed stuff and myself and a few fellow hypnotists are looking into it right now. BTW through a mutual friend I understand that Russell has some very interesting information. I have had a few e-conversations with him myself.



Quote:

In the UK, we currently have a Magician/Mentalist called Derren Brown performing some really weird stuff on members of the public using some incredible auto suggestive techniques, I've actually seen him live and he was superb. There are a few clips of him doing some of the tricks from his TV series. The pick pocketing one is brilliant!




By all counts Derren Brown is the Sh!t.


Quote:

From a personal point of view, I'm very very skepitical. I'll match Kempomans $1000 do someone who can knock me out using their energy alone. I can't say I'm really interested in pursuing these no-touch KO's, but I'm definately going to be looking into the NLP and speed hypnosis techniques when more information becomes available. Hope I haven't gone to far off topic.




Stay skeptical, skepticism is a good thing. I think that most of the speed hypnosis stuff is based off of properly worded suggestion with some new kickass anchoring techniques. For example, you can be in state within a few seconds when someone begins to tell a story about cutting their toungue with a razor blade (made you cringe didn't I). What must take place for someone to be in state is that the conscious mind must be occupied (like give a bunch of complex instructions) and sort-of fixated on something. Anyway great post Gavin.

Kempoman
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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