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#153428 - 05/30/06 05:22 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Quote:

here is what I'm getting at, the term 'Dim Mak' is a chinese term and is based upon traditional chinese medicine theory (which WT and kosh have eluded to supporting).




I don`t understand this. Could you explain what you mean? Do you mean that I eluded to support chinese medicine theory?

Quote:

I'm calling that total bunk ...but whoa wait a sec...they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system, they base their Dim Mak upon the modern nerve, artery and physical anatomy strikes.

ok, so you are deciding to use an old foreign word that was so named based entirely on the 'energy' view of how the body worked, instead of just saying 'pressure point striking'.
pressure point striking implies modern anatomy knowledge.
'Dim Mak' does not.
why mix and match the two terms?




Good question, I never thought of it this way. For me both meant the same thing, I forgot others may not think so. Hmm, I guess I could maybe say that pressure point fighting is part of Dim Mak?
Anyway like I said, I think Dim Mak has many levels, so you could look pressure points as a more physical level based on western anatomy?
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153429 - 05/30/06 06:21 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

this leads one to believe they are basing their Dim Mak skill upon knowledge of the chinese meridian system which places target areas along these pathways.




Well Ed, I guess you've got me... I have to admit using the meridian points as "targets" because they are significantly simpler to locate and discuss than telling someone the name of every muscle and nerve and artery in the body. Telling someone to hit "neigwan" with a block is easier than telling them to hit the median nerve at the location where the median nerve crosses between the radius and ulna and the nerve is exposed to a "bone strike". If they know "neigwan" is on the inner wrist, about three paragraphs of conversation is unnecessary.

Now, that being said, I think if you'll take a TCM book and trace the meridians, you'll find that the "meridian points" are all much like ST-9 turned out to be... a point where the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems elicit control or effects on different vital body organs. If I told you to hit the vagus nerve in the chest, would you know how or where? If I told you to hit the conception vessel at mid-chest with a one-knuckle fist, you'd be able to figure it out.

I've told you as long as I've been on these boards that "pressure points" weren't the great panacea or mystery that they're blown up to be. It's just good Kyusho Jitsu (methods of hitting the body).

Much of the Dim Mak technique is in knowing what's where inside the body, and hitting at an angle to attack that particular weakness (hence, the "angles"). Often, it is to rupture a blood vessel or destroy a lymphatic gland and cause an accumulation of lymphatic fluid. Using the proper fist structure, pressure, or in some cases "stomp" to hit a point causes the effect you're looking for is where the "science" of Dim Mak resides.

The reason it was called "Poison Hand" or "Death Touch" was because at the time it developed, not everyone knew how to drain a hematoma, or had paddles to shock a heart attack victim. CPR wasn't one of the skills in most Dim Mak schools. Strikes to the points on the body would result in death, often many weeks or months later from the lack of proper medical attention. The methods still work, there is just better medicine to treat the effects, probably saving many of the victims from dying.

Quote:

they weren't saying their Dim mak was based on the ancient meridian system




I hate to burst your bubble, but the "ancient meridian system" was developed much like modern western medicine, and while the terminology and treatment might be different, the science is still pretty solid. You say it's bunk... but To quote you "I think there are about a couple of hundred million Chinese that would disagree with you" (from our thread about defining martial arts)

I pretty much knew where this would lead if the thread was kept alive long enough, and I'm glad that you can see that everything isn't bunk just because you don't have the depth of understanding to correlate it to your own thinking. That is why I asked the question about how you selected targets in karate... you have to know that "hitting some places" is more effective than "hitting others "unless the hitter is dumb as a stump. ( I have a better chance of knocking somebody out hitting the hinge of the jaw than punching their shoulder, for example.)

Dim Mak is for real, and it's got scientific backup. I do, however, think there is a language barrier... two cultures separated by a common language... (borrowed that from George Bernard Shaw)

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153430 - 05/30/06 10:22 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I think I get it now. thanks for hanging in there. here is my take on it now, see if this is a more accurate view and correct me:

'Dim Mak' was so named after an old Chinese system of pressure point striking, since the medical science knowledge wasn't there to explain why some places hurt more and did more damage then others, they explained it in terms of meridians circulating Chi thru the body.

what they were actually trying to describe is what we now know as pressure points. Overlay the meridian system on top of a pressure point map, and it completes the picture of the old and new understanding.

now, the assumption goes...if the ancient Chinese got the points and effects correct, but only got the explanation wrong - then when their notes tell us 'here is a point which causes death or delayed death', we can assume this is from imperical knowledge (I could buy they would have conducted tests on expendables for that knowledge).

so, by overlaying the two peices of knowledge (asumption the points have been tested at one time, plus the modern knowledge of anatomy), we are able to construct a justification for this method.

right so far? there are still three questions.

1. Is there an agreed upon defacto standard pressure point striking reference? if not, why? and is the standard based on test data with various subjects? (I realize not the death claims, just the knockouts). is so, why wasn't THAT book recommended to the thread?

2. are the odds of hitting just the right point during a struggle, worth the practice? and during practice, what are the indicators that you are doing it correctly? pain as an indicator? I've been hit in the neck a few times during pracice from people who weren't aiming for any pinpoint other than the side of my neck...they didn't even strike that hard and it hurt -actually, it's pretty hard to find ANY area on the neck that doesn't hurt when you hit it. you could say your neck is just a rats nest of nerves and blood vessles. do I need a map to tell me where to hit? nope. if I have a neck shot, I'm taking it with either my hand, fist, wrist, forearm or elbow...whatever makes sense at the time.

3. can you locate points thru clothing? I just aim for vital areas...there are areas easily found by relative position on the body. tell me you can pick a target between either the 3rd and 4th rib thru clothing of an opponent you've never trained with before and I'd say you are dreaming...you will aim at the side of the body just like I do. What makes the training more a waste of time, is if you subconsciencely learn to 'aim an inch below the org patch on the gi'. lol well, it's probably the same amount of chance your assailent will be the same size and donned that way for you to zap him.

I was wrong to think Dim Mak and pressure point striking were two separate things. I can see with the confusion how sheistas would clean up on this subject.

last question, do grapplers train in-depth Dim Mak/pressure points as regular training or do they train vital area targeting like in most other Arts?

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#153431 - 05/31/06 12:19 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Ed, you're trying to rationalize/explain one in terms of the other and you can't, simply because TCM is a complete paradigm shift from western medicine. There is some overlap in terms of the explanatory model, but there is no corresponding constructs in one or the other. Hence the use of the term "complementary medicine" to describe "traditional" medicine - which BTW, includes other holistic therapies.

TCM is based on a holistic view of the person, whereas modern western medicine tends to be reductionistic in approach. Oddly enough, early western medicine during the Golden Age of Greece (Hippocrates etc.), originally viewed the human body in holistic terms.

For example, there is no such thing as a pancreas, or endocrine system, or nervous system in TCM. Yet, we know that these exist in western medicine. Western medicine views the gallbladder as an appendage that can be removed, whereas TCM views it as a vital part of an organic (bio-energetic) system related to other organs.

Quite simply, you can't compare 2 different paradigms using a common frame of reference.

Dim Mak (Mandarin = dian mai or dian xue) literally means to touch the "pulse". In TCM, the blood and qi is closely related, one supports the other. In western terms, you could consider it to be the interaction of blood, enzymes, neuropeptides and other bio-chemicals, along with the nervous system and what else, but it would be "incomplete" in TCM terms since everything is related to each other, dependent/co-dependent/inter-dependent upon each other in some way.

So you see the difficulty?

Whilst western medicine and the general approach can be helpful in some ways, TCM can also be helpful in other ways.

Being Chinese, I'd swear by a body of knowledge that is over 5000 years old. But by the same token, I also appreciate the advances in Western medicine and the knowledge it presents.

I think you need to understand each for what it is, and appreciate both for its strengths and shortcomings.

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#153432 - 05/31/06 12:51 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
I understand, but what is now referred to as 'pressure point striking' is in western anatomy terms...not in ancient energy terms.

is that correct? or better yet, briefly define for me the functional difference between 'Dim Mak' and 'pressure point striking' and 'vital point striking'.

heres my def:
DM via => TCM
PP via => modern anatomy
VP via => modern anatomy

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#153433 - 05/31/06 06:35 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
An excellent observation. I think the issue is trying to explain something based on a different paradigm (dim mak/TCM), using a specific frame of reference (i.e. western medical knowledge).

The best way I can answer the question is this:

TCM views the body as a closed-loop 'energy' state which can be affected by internal (e.g. emotions etc.) and external influences (e.g. environment, weather, air, food, etc.). Pressure points (i.e. acu-points) along the meridians can affect the internal energy state of the body, and conversely, the internal energy state can be reflected in the surface areas of the body, like localized pain/tenderness at specific points.

Since there is no equivalent construct for meridians in western medicine, how can you describe what functional differences there are between pressing/poking an acu-point, versus a nerve point in the western medical sense?

While there are some locations on the body can be fatally struck, and which can be explained in western medical terms, the explanation in TCM is quite different, simply because TCM explains it as an "upset in the equilibrium of the body's 'energy' state".

E.g. if you have a blocked nose like from a cold, massaging LI20 clears the sinus and opens the nasal passages. I don't know how or why it works but it is extremely effective. I don't know if there is any GP out there that can tell you why or how it works. (If there are, I'd really like to hear what their theory is).

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#153434 - 05/31/06 07:33 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Eyrie,
I think we've finally made some progress with Ed. It's like trying to explain a Chinese paradigm to an American using Japanese as the common language...

I think you hit on the problems that exist between trying to explain the TCM and Western medicine provinces, and without stirring it up again, I'd like to explain to Ed that there's also a further breakdown in which one study is "hitting the points" (raised places) and the other "hitting the cavaties", again based on TCM.

Ed, it's hard for someone who only knows the thinking of western medicine to ever understand treating asthma by massaging pressure points or applying moxibustion to places totally unrelated to the lungs (in western theory). I think Eyrie made the best explanation of why it's difficult to download when you attribute "target area" to a whole different system of thinking.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153435 - 05/31/06 07:59 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
maybe it works because you believe it works? the real test would be if it works for 99.9% of the people. I think one of the contentions of why western science has accepted yet not practiced TCM, is because the practices are based upon metaphysical beliefs and 'proven' by pragmatic/regressive fallacy.

further, I'm starting to see how the blending in understanding of TCM's 'meridians' and modern anatomy has been force fit and overlayed into the current Dim Mak method in order to be sold as an ancient system that works. That would be fine...if it did work consistantly and was testable, but it's not.

have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)
http://www.ncahf.org/pp/acu.html

also, eyrie, in the neijin thread, you lead me to believe that chi is nothing nonphysical, but rather is a kind of complex relationship in activity between center of gravity and body dynamics...but yet here you are basically saying chi is an independant circulatory energy via meridians which are beyond modern medical science.

which is it?

btw, modern medical science has been around and evolving since when? about 200 years say. in those 200 years, I would argue magnitudes of advances have taken place than the previous 2000 years. kosh: life expectancy is a DIRECT result of modern science, not just 'part of why'. ....to acknowledge otherwise is highly suspect in where people are getting their ideas.

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#153436 - 05/31/06 08:51 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

I use a simplified Pressure Point, Vital Striking Point theory that always works.

Just consider the entire body a vital point and strike anyplace with power.

You don't have to worry, whatever happens underneath the point works.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#153437 - 05/31/06 09:12 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

maybe it works because you believe it works? the real test would be if it works for 99.9% of the people. I think one of the contentions of why western science has accepted yet not practiced TCM, is because the practices are based upon metaphysical beliefs and 'proven' by pragmatic/regressive fallacy.




I'm sure you will forgive my reluctance to prove anything to you... try it the next time before you hit the pseudoephedrine and see if it works for you.

Quote:


further, I'm starting to see how the blending in understanding of TCM's 'meridians' and modern anatomy has been force fit and overlayed into the current Dim Mak method in order to be sold as an ancient system that works. That would be fine...if it did work consistantly and was testable, but it's not.





One of the difficulties of TCM is looking at the individual's presentation of symptoms, since the treatment might dictate a different form of therapy (acupunture, herbs, moxibustion etc.) and can vary greatly from individual to individual, since TCM aims to treat root cause of illness from a holistic perspective, and not the symptoms as is predominant in western medicine.

To confuse you further, going back to LI20, if it doesn't work for you, it may be that something else is unbalanced and you may have to boost your lung "energy" by borrowing from the spleen in the generating cycle. It kinda depends...

Quote:


have a look at a study done in 1990 by the NCAHF (National Council Against Health Fraud)





A "study" by an organization whose board of directors and office bearers are primarily engaged in the practice of western medicine. Forgive me if I say it's somewhat biased.

Quote:


also, eyrie, in the neijin thread, you lead me to believe that chi is nothing nonphysical, but rather is a kind of complex relationship in activity between center of gravity and body dynamics...but yet here you are basically saying chi is an independant circulatory energy via meridians which are beyond modern medical science.





From the TCM perspective, qi is a co-dependent state. What we were discussing in the neijin thread has to do with martial application of "internally" generated force (that's what nei-jin literally means), which is completely different to what is being discussed here. Of course qi (as in breath) can assist the use of "internal" force, but on its own does very little, from a martial perspective.

BTW, I don't profess to know everything.... it's still very much a longitudinal learning exercise for me....

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