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#153458 - 06/01/06 08:40 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I like a bit of scientific medical light reading...

Seriously, mum was a registered nurse... so I guess something rubbed off there...???

It's not hard to understand, it's close to what Victor said... except he left out the really big medical words.

Basically, press the carotid sinus, and you cause the person to faint and lose consciousness. This loss of consciousness (syncope) is caused by a narrowing of the vascular system, which is triggered by the involuntary contraction of smooth muscle, and initiated by pressure receptors in the skin.

BTW, ST9 (at the bifurcation of the carotid artery) is used in TCM for palpation of the pulse, and is used to establish the patient's prognosis. TCM disgnosis is based on feeling the quality and strength of the pulse to identify internal disharmonies/dysfunction.

Remember, TCM considers the whole body as "states" of equilibrium - and the approach seeks to address causative dysfunction rather than treating symptoms.

The more interesting question is how the ancients figured out the relationship of ST9 and its effect on the heart? Why stomach? Perhaps because the cholestrol-laden crap people eat can affect their arteries??

#153459 - 06/01/06 09:24 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
The Dim Mak/kyusho is an effective adjunct to augment skills and not a replacement. But it is a viable adjunct!!! I was not allowed to study Kyusho until I passed my Shodan test. Now Shodan didn't make me an expert in anything but it did mean that my school expected us to have at least executable skills BEFORE we were allowed to use Kyusho. Now I use Kyusho pretty much when ever I have to use physical control and restraint techniques at work. THEY ARE PRACTICAL. I wouldn't be able to execute my techniques against men without it. I wish I could come out of the closet so to speak about Kyusho at work and train the people I work with. When I have shown useful applications in techniques that we are allowed to use, (or sneak in when necessary)my staff agrees that the Kyusho makes a lot of difference.
The older I get, the better I was!

#153460 - 06/01/06 09:47 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Gavin, forgive my direct way. it does serve a purpose though. by using words like bunk and nonsense, etc it seems to wake people up and give their view and/or correct me. The rest just read and aren't willing to take the risk of being wrong sometimes. I don't mind being wrong, I don't even mind looking long as I learn something in the process - it's all good.

study of location and angle of strikes for controlling the immediate reaction of an opponent makes sense to me.

when people talk of 'delayed injury', death, time of day consideration, disrupting 'energy flow', imaginary channels within the body, pinpoint accuracy with untestable results, etc thats when I call it bunk and will continue to do so until proof makes it's way to me.

hows that for generalization.

#153461 - 06/01/06 12:16 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ah, now that explains a few things!

I personally don't think we're likely to see any evidence that proves the existence for this 'energy' within our life times. I also don't suscribe to the fact that my belief in this 'energy' is based a faith alone either. My belief is based on experiences and my interpretations of such experiences.

A little over a year and half ago I was a firm skeptic and believed purely in the physical. Over this period I've been introduced to various thoughts and experienced various things that have completely altered my perception.

As Eyrie said its a completely different paradigm than we are accustomed to in the west. Our approach is clinical in the east it is observational. They see something happening and explain it. These observations are based on over 2500 years worth of 'clinical' observation. Whether their observations can be explained via MWM is neither here nor there, TCM does have an effect and it has been documented in hundreds of studies. Could it all be in the mind? Absolutely, because in TCM there isn't the distinction between the affairs of the mind and those of the body. The west is just starting to catch onto this one. Many physical disorders have a direct impact on the mental well being of person and various mental disorders also have an impact on the physical.

I personally like the TCM way of thinking, if the theory works why change it? They just accept it for it is. Once you start looking at both approaches side by side you'll a lot of correlation. Take for example the way Chi flows through the various internal organs and the times it peaks within a said organ. Now look at the MWM perspective at when these organs function and it matches the TCM point of view. There was a study I was reading a while back on children who suffer from asthma and it noted that a large majority had difficulty sleeping in the early morning. Lung energy peaks in the early morning... might be coincidence, a problem of the lungs manifesting itself during the time of the lung meridians peak?

As I said, I do believe fully in the theory, I just don't buy the hype about using the cycles against anyone other than compliant people. Using individual targets in real life situations, yes, I fully believe its possible. K.O using three or four points fueled by adrenaline and with the energetic differences of the body because of adrenaline, I affraid I haven't seen done. But I think thats going a little too far off topic... actually what was the original topic????
Gavin King
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

#153462 - 06/01/06 02:06 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

I personally like the TCM way of thinking, if the theory works why change it? They just accept it for it is.

To borrow eyrie's words:

I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively.

I think I can explain my source of sceptism.

consider: WHAT IF...TCM gained empirical knowledge on this subject by trial and error without understanding the 'why'. thats not unreasonable right? I mean, can't you picture ancient Chinese experimenting on what makes a body tick and what makes it sick? It is still useful knowledge since it is based on the experience of trial and error. and I would agree with that. 'it just works' is a completely valid reason to keep doing something... particularly in healing and MA. To underline the point, one other event, which is horrible, but it happened that human medical experimentation data during WW2 led to some important medical theories later.

now consider, in TCM when you take that raw data and construct a theory as to the 'why', over time, the theory of the 'why' begins to take precident over the raw data it was based on! for example: Everyone knows the 'big bang theory' but nobody knows the substantiating evidence.

In medical science, as the evidence is gained over time - the theory changes accordingly (political and corporate agenda aside).
In TCM, the theory is absolute (since its been around so long) and conflicting evidence is ignored.

Perception drives reality for humans. Things get extrapolated along the paths we place down for them.

heres the source of the problem with TCM: the concept of 'chi' as an energy is not part of the raw's the theory which explains the raw data. Just because the theory is an ancient one, we shouldn't give it 'unchangeable' status.

so now, everyone reading is saying 'who cares, it still works'. but does it?

The Chinese started with raw data and came up with a theory of Chi energy circulation. with that map of chi meridian lines, subsequent points were placed upon it along it's theoretical paths. now you have a problem with dangerous assumption. you now have just created points (not based on raw data) using theory. because the theory is considered fixed, when they go to test the theoretical points, they don't work as expected and all sorts of wacky justifications and explainations are made like time of day considerations, etc.

see where I'm going with this? thats my scepticsm. I'm just using imagination, not historical fact since nobody really knows.

I'll leave people with one other question. if disruptions in chi flow can be affected differently and predictably depending on time of day, would someone who works graveyard shift have different times? so is chiflow wallclock time or body clock time? if it's by body cycle, how can either a doctor or defender tell what cycle their patient/opponent is in?

If these things aren't understood, how can the theory of chi be accepted so easily UNLESS it was about faith?

#153463 - 06/01/06 02:28 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Interesting thread...and way over my head. I like the idea about perception tho'. Kind of like...learning how to step 'off-line' in karate. Now, one can go at it from an angles perspective (modern), or a more 'wholistic' way by absorbing a philosophy/worldview and discovering the practical use later. Both ways work.

But placing complete faith in modern science bothers me. I mean...I have to go through various doctors who tell me 'there is nothing wrong with your knee'.

'But...there is pain...kinda right in the middle'. Lacking the ability to identify the pain to a joint/muscle/piece of a body I may come up with some ad hoc way of describing it.

'Well...the Xrays don't show must be in your head.'

If I accepted the diagnosis there would be no searching to TRY to match personal/subjective reality with the science of 2 physicians (albeit...bad ones) torn meniscus would never come to light.

#153464 - 06/01/06 03:21 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: harlan]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH

There's a vast difference between placing faith in Modern Medicine for what they do know and assuming that they have finished all the answers.

For example if bubonic plague were breaking out, or you needed heart surgery, or a kidney replacement do you really question Modern Medicine's abilities?

But whether every doctor has the knowledge and availability to diagnose all of the millions of different ailments every time is an entirely different issue.

But suppose you place your faith in Chinese Medicine, how do you know that the person using accupuncture was at the head or the bottom of their class either?

Serindipity always exists. Which means it takes personal responsiblity to see if you can find better answers, and there are times there are none.

Several years ago I lost a student, with a genetic disease that struck while he was in his mid 40's. Uncountable numbers of doctors and research hospitals, a solid year of non-stop tests made no difference. They couldn't peg what was so rare that it really hadn't been studied in depth.

Life is uncertaintiy and certain dissolution in the end. Perhaps we can mitigate the results somewhat, but there is a lot of pesonal responsibility in that answer, not someone elses.

Life isn't by definition fair, which is why the essence of the arts exist after all. If it was fair why would we need to defend ourselves?

Frankly placing my faith in hands on faith healing, or press the dots, or pin sticking are as unlikely to me too.

But I know those whose faith in faith healing is unshakable.

Sorry but there are no simple answers.

Edited by Victor Smith (06/01/06 03:23 PM)
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#153465 - 06/01/06 04:00 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: harlan]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
understood. The common sense approach works for me. The reason I place a higher regard for science is because it changes, for the most part, improves upon its body of knowledge. whereas static beliefs tend to be self-defining and less critical of itself.

It's not a great leap of imagination to suppose that what the Chinese discovered as Chi was the central nervous system. their maps were just off a bit. their explaination as to the 'why' might have been off alot.

This would also explain how soft/internal Arts use the visualization of Chi as an energy to get results. The visulization may help the brain fire efficient patterns to the particular muscles, while leaving other portons of the same muscle relaxed. interesting stuff when the old and new realities are combined in figuring out what might be going on.
-does thinking in terms of chi energy help? probably.
-is it really what is going on? probably not.
-If it works, then do it? certainly.
-do it without asking questions? boring.
-Chi and Dim Mak theory can't be broken down into western thinking? hocus pocus nonsense.

perhaps after understanding chi's physical properties in terms it hasn't had the chance to before, there may be a better and more efficient, more predictable way of visualizing and therefore training it. who knows.

I've never seen paranormal things in other parts of life (except maybe the concept of 7 year old black belts twirling weapons and shreiking), but why would this concept of Chi/Dim Mak lead me to expect otherwise.

#153466 - 06/01/06 06:53 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina

It's not a great leap of imagination to suppose that what the Chinese discovered as Chi was the central nervous system. their maps were just off a bit. their explaination as to the 'why' might have been off alot.

Ed, let's go a little deeper yet... when you say "central nervous system", you're medically talking about the spine and the nerve bundles that eminate from there. There are several "nerve systems" in the body and some others that aren't so well defined and as predictable as the nerve system reactions... the lymphatic system, for instance. While everyone knows about the lymph nodes, they can be affected in numerous ways and cause horrendous problems... why, because they act as a "filtering system" in the body. Damage to the lymph system can cause infections, accumulations of lymphatic fluids (edema), and a host of other "nasties" that require some substantial doctoring to fix.

Many of the hitting points of Dim Mak were right on top of lymph system nodes which caused lymph edema, and a resulting damage to a nearby limb, organ or similar organ that becomes overtaxed because of the lymph system breakdown... i.e. the liver. Ask any woman who's had a mastectomy about lymphedema, and you'll find out that it's a gruesome disease... caused by excising and removing lymph nodes that cause an upset in the lymph system. That fluid travels just under the skin, and is like a "fluid suit" that meanders all over the body just under the skin.

While blunt force trauma can cause some pretty nasty nerve impacts, we sometimes forget that the target area might not necessarily be designed to only hit a nerve point. As Dim Mak was designed to injure or kill someone "later" strikes to the lymph system could cause problems that might not manifest themselves for weeks or months.

In dealing with my wife's lymphedema from her cancer surgery, I've learned a lot about the lymph system and how to handle it in the "injured" state, and it requires some "touch" to get it right. Too much pressure and you don't do anything except "cause a hole in the fluid, and too little pressure and you don't move the fluid, so there is a "right pressure" anywhere you're dealing with this type of massage.

Fast forward back in time to when Dim Mak was originating, and all the western medicine wasn't available to "fix" lymph problems. A "correct strike" to one of those numbered "meridians" could cause a lymphedema that would eventually cause sickness or death... at the very least, an incapacitation of the victim.

I recently played judo with a kid in the judo class, and he kept trying to sweep my foot and missed, but every time, he popped me on the ST-40 point in my leg with his ankle bone. It took about six minutes for a hematoma the size of a baseball to come up, and completely dibilatate me... the next week, I had some killer bruises from my knee to my ankles, and he wasn't hitting me hard... just consistently... and I had the damnedest hickey on my leg you've ever seen. When the doctor saw it, he said "Oh, you've got a lymphedema from some kind of leg trauma"... "have you hit your leg on a table or something?"

Needless to say, I made up my best lie, and retreated to the ice pack to get the swelling down, but it was one awful looking place that was right on top of a lymph node...(given that he reasonably didn't hit exactly the same spot each time, but close enough for government work).

Now, your assumption appears to be that since the TCM practitioners see things differently and don't describe them in exactly what you consider "scientific" terms, that their science isn't as good as western science, but I would disagree. The western medicine doctor sees the injury and defines treatment from that point. The TCM doctor approaches it from healing the entire body, not just the injured part... and realistically, I trust someone that treats edema with massage and ice packs rather than a prescription pad full of pain killers.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#153467 - 06/01/06 07:46 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Perhaps it should be worthwhile to note that what we call "conventional" or modern western medicine has its roots in early Egyptian, Greek, Roman and Islamic (via Persia) medicine.

In fact, the work of Avicenna (Ibn Senna, a Persian scientist), vis-a-vis the Canon of Medicine, largely forms the basis of our modern medical science.

What is little known is that the writings of the Hippocratic Corpus (questionably attributed to Hippocrates, to whom our medical fraternity still pledge the Hippocratic Oath [we hope!, although I'm not sure that they would swear by the gods of the Greek/Roman pantheon...]), and the subsequent work of Galen, described concepts (vis-a-vis "The 4 Humours" and "4 Elements") similar to Ayurvedic and Chinese medical philosophy - which were developed quite independently.

If you look at the history of modern medicine, the radical shift from its origins of holistic, palliative and non-invasive therapeutic philosophy to invasive "treatments" which target and address symptomatic disease is quite astounding.

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