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#153448 - 05/31/06 05:06 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
MattJ Offline
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Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Victor Smith -

Quote:

Are you suggesting that some places are more appropriate to strike and are a better choice than another place? Is that a distinction that should be made?




My studies have pointed to a yes answer to that question - to a degree. For instance if aiming to hit someone in the general area of their face, I usually go for the nose as opposed to the center of their forehead.

Ditto for the kidneys as opposed to the shoulder blades. And so on. Everyplace will have an effect, but some more than others.

Similarly, I agree with Butterfly on the "mechanics" aspect as well. Some techniques will be much more difficult to do if you do not have a grasp of how the move is meant to work (as opposed to what it looks like). Many sweeps and throws fall into this category (hell, most grappling techniques), becoming difficult if not impossible to execute if the conceptual understanding (how/when, etc) is not there.

Even basic punching can benefit from understanding the mechanics and interactions involved with the opponent. I would rather hit someone moving into my punch than catch them moving away.
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#153449 - 05/31/06 06:48 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed,
from a cursory look at the material, it was published in 1990, and there's a lot gone on in the last 16 years medically. I think more mainstream doctors are accepting of the "alternatives" to western medicine now, and aren't quite so quick (as these guys were) to call everyone else a quack.

I agree that we should be cautious of material if we don't understand it or its origin, but something that gets passed over and is basic to ALL arguments like this is that "the body is the body"... it isn't different for me and something entirely different for you. All the points are in the same place, all the nerves and organs are (hopefully) located in the same places, and the skeletal structure is the same... so whether you're calling it "pressure points", "Dim Mak", "Dim Tseuh", or whatever, if it works, it works.

Now I bail off the bus when we start the "chi ball" theory of attack and defense, but I have friends who swear that they can "throw energy" and do all sorts of other "magic tricks" with their ki, but I've had some of my own experiences that I couldn't explain, so I'm not going to shout them down for it. I might not believe them, but I just let it go... that's probably why we're still friends.

In reading some of the banter between Victor and Butterfly, I noticed that they are more concerned with "consistency in training and body mechanics" on this matter, which really doesn't have anything to do with Dim Mak. I do agree with Victor, however, that it doesn't matter how you explain what you're doing as long as it works consistently. The second part of that, Victor, is to make sure you pass it on to someone... it might help avoid these 8 page arguments...

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#153450 - 05/31/06 07:03 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
I too want to understand why what I am doing does or does not work. I also need to know because even in practice, while I seek to do no harm, I am causing discomfort and sometimes a KO. I want to work safely. Generally, I look to western med for answers and framework.

We all started with the TCM and I have spent lots of money on books from TCM point of view. I'm moving and I discarded and gave them away. They don't help me understand what I am doing. I understand about not having a lifetime to acquire a physician's background. Fortunately, there are physicians in the martial arts and they are willing to distill what they know into books that I can understand. In Kyusho International, we have a physician group in Mexico and they will be publishing their original research on kyusho. I'm very certain that along with their more scholarly work, there will be companion literature that I can learn from.

I am also a fan of chiropractic. I myself have had my spine problems diagnosed by the chiropractor who then sent me to a back surgeon for a consult. The surgeon said horay for my chiropractor and advised that I move forward with the chiropractor's treatment plan since it sounded lots better than surgery. It was indeed very much better. I probably would not have been able to pursue martial arts had I had the surgery.

That delayed death touch stuff, a few pages back? During my study of Kyusho, I've seen the rules change a lot. At first Master Dillman would say practice on one side of the body only during any one session, limit the time to about 15-20 min a week and that 5 points could cause death. Since the points could add up within a 20 min. time frame, that made practice look pretty scarey. We weren't supposed to hit people over 40 years old and the list goes on. We have grown a lot since those times. Praxis challenges myth. We all learn and move forward.

Could you cause death? There are lots of explanations/suggestions of what could be hit and how to cause death. If you want to kill someone though, you'd be hitting whole lots harder than we hit in practice. Also, from a practical point of view, what do I want with a delayed death touch? If I want to kill someone, it is probably because I'm in a life threatening situation. I need to kill the perpetrator NOW! Or at least disfunction him enough so that I can get away now.

Those are my saved up opinions from this very diverse and interesting thread.
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#153451 - 05/31/06 09:07 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: MattJ]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Matt,

Funny thing is I have specific center of the forehead strikes from my aikido/tjimande/eagle claw studies, that have extremely specific uses. Of course by strikes I never intended they were one strike does all, just they are tools in conjunction with specific sets of responses.

And speaking of shoulder blades, they have their uses too.

Look as you know when I was focusing on principles I was referring to the specific meridian channel stuff.

There are principles and there are principles. Techniques are not executed in a vacuum.

It's obvious if a choice presents itself (either through serendipity or skill of the set up response) we'll choose what we feel is best, but there are such unlimited choices.

The shoulder blade versus the kidney area is an example of choosing a strike so the response will result in the person moving to a specific space, because you want them there for a perceived strategic response.

Of course if you have say the opportunity to choose kidney versus shoulder blade, you also have a huge number of other choices. What are you striking with? a punch, a single knuckle strike, a palm strike, a finger tip strike or a leg technique.

None of this ever precludes appropriate training.
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#153452 - 05/31/06 09:15 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: underdog]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
underdog,

I can understand your desire, but in the end it's technique execution that matters, IMO, and appropriate training to utilize that execution. Which btw, is often requires years and years to do.

From the surgeon who trained with us I have more than a fair idea of what certain results yield.

For example the whole myth of blood chokes, pure BS everywhere. As if any of you can choke the carotid enough to shut off the brains blood flow. The reason of course is there are plenty of secondary vessels that supply blood to the brain, and even if your fingers of steel could shut off the carotid arteries, it means nothing because in routine neck surgery, they do clamp the carotid arteries off, and keep the patient awake and aware the entire time. Because the brain has adequate blood.

No the 'blood chokes' really are carotid sinus manipulation that causes the heart to stop beating, not shutting off the brain.

And I have a whole ton of books in many systems keeping the blood choke mythology alive. Because it sounds reasonable.

I've offered plenty of times that Doc should pull the appropriate underlying science together for us, but as a practicing surgeon, he as more important things to do with his time. And he rather likes the techniques we do, for he switched over from another system to join us.

In a perfect world, we would all train to become surgeons, and then become serious black belts and then we might make it mesh.

But in the real world I live in, you do what you can, and I'd rather do.. so I try a bit, sometimes better than others.

Yet words get in the way too often,
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#153453 - 06/01/06 06:31 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

eyrie,

I don't know, with thousands of techniqe studies in our repetiore, all of which work, it's enough to keep one busy. Of course having a surgeon in our program for a long time, I've learned not to worry about what I'm not trained to deal with, such as medical knowledge.

If the technique works, does the why, if you can really explain it, really matter?

BTW, from long experience it's enough to learn how to make do correctly.

I guess the difference is whether undersanding the underlying reason a technique works is more important than the study of the infinite ways techniques can be used effectively.




Victor, I appreciate what you're saying and generally agree - study of ways of using technique effectively is more important that understanding why it works. I just perfer to understand why it works, because it helps me understand how to make it work more effectively. The same goes for knowing where to hit and how.

Having said that, aikido has few formal techniques, since one technique is the "same" as all techniques, so I tend not to focus too much on 100s or 1000s of "techniques", but rather on technical execution.

My reasons for studying TCM is from the healing perspective. I'm not particularly interested in knowing how to hit specific points to kill or make someone puke or wet his pants - that's the easy bit.

The hard bit is reversing the damage caused as a result of such trauma.

Having a good knowledge of physical anatomy can be handy - knowing how the twist a joint to separate tendon and muscle from bone, or how to pop a shoulder out is useful to know.

But knowing how to pop a dislocated shoulder back in, or how to restore a person's state of well-being, for me, is a far more useful thing to know.

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#153454 - 06/01/06 06:59 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


No the 'blood chokes' really are carotid sinus manipulation that causes the heart to stop beating, not shutting off the brain.




In medical terminology, stimulation (compression) of the carotid sinus triggers the carotid baroreceptor reflex which causes a coronary artery spasm, which can lead to the occlusion of the distal bed of the posterolateral branch of the right coronary artery. This can present as vasospastic or variant angina and results in a sudden drop in blood pressure, followed by syncopation.

IOW, it's a neurally mediated syncope (aka neurocardiogenic, vasovagal, vasodepressor or reflex mediated syncope).

But I'm sure Roseanne already knew that...


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#153455 - 06/01/06 07:16 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
eyrie, I don't think I've ever asked...what is your medical background? or did you lift that from a book? I mean, did you understand what you just wrote? lol

what I do is hit their neck and call 911.

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#153456 - 06/01/06 07:16 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Just wanted say its been an interesting read and its great to see some great sweeping generalisations Ed. Oooo and you recomended Fajing didn't ya? I remember a few sweeping generalisations you made about that concept a while back.

Eyrie, just wanted to say some of your observations have been very much in accordance with my own. The Western mind trying to grasp the Eastern is something that I've been having a lot of difficulty with in my own TCM studies.
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www.SHIKON.COM
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#153457 - 06/01/06 07:32 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Gavin]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
my original post was deleted.

gavin edited my post to be:
Quote:


I see it as the other way round, I see the sweeping statements and continued use of the word "bunk" that puts those with the information being sought from giving it out? Dunno, different strokes and all that.

Dim Mak books? Ready for a bombshell... I personally don't see Dim Mak or Kyusho as anything but the subject of intellectual research and something fun to play with. Although I'm a firm believer in the theory behind it, I have yet to meet anyone who can apply it practically. I'm actually with you on fact that in combat we should train general specific targets rather than dime sized targets.

But I still thinking learning those dime sized targets and the effects is highly important. Take Spleen 10 as a great example, just above the inside of the knee. Get the angle and direction correct and you'll buckle someones knee easily with a single finger. Smash a full power knee or kick into the general area at the same angle and it'll go even better results. So books I'd recomend would be Dillmans and the DSI's. Use the points as hints for you power delivery and then practice delivering shed loads of power in at that angle. Studying Wave forms/Fajing/loose power/any other serious type of power generation methods will mean once landed you shouldn't need to do anything afterwards be it fire melts metal, metal cuts water or water gets you wet etc...





Gavin, if you did that by mistake, no offense.

Sorry mate - I must have clicked edit, instead of reply! Doh!


Edited by Gavin (06/02/06 09:15 AM)

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