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#153518 - 06/04/06 04:26 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina

it took Doc almost not time at all to find medical inaccuracies in the descriptions.

Victor, again it goes back to the TCM approach vs Western medicine. The paradigms don't correlate to one another, so I don't think you could expect the data to do so either.

Western medicine doesn't even acknowledge the basis of TCM which is the meridian systems, so how could you expect emperical evidence of their use? While much of our medicines are similar to old folk remedies (or at least using the same chemical structures for healing), how much western medicine is accomplished through acupuncture?

Acupuncture flourished in China until 1932, when Chang Khi Chek took over, and banished it until he escaped to Formosa in 1945. At that time, Mao Tse Tung, took over and restored acupuncture back to it's place of prominence in a country that was devoid of antibiotics and western medical thinking.

Today, there are 16 acupuncture schools, 8000 acupuncturists, and two medical schools teaching acupuncture in the USA. The majority of the acupuncturists work in pain control clinics, and the needles have been changed from the "investigative" category to "accepted medicical instruments" The National Institute of Health has formed, for the first time, a department of Alternative Health care to provide needed research in such alternatives as acupuncture as alternatives to western medicine.

I would assume they're doing that to learn what the Chinese might have known for the past 5000 years...

I can't explain how my printer/fax/ copy machine works, but I know if I hit the buttons in the correct sequence, I can print, fax, and copy things. Doctors aren't likely to admit that they might have the same lack of expertise in fixing the body...

If you talk to a surgeon, they can usually fix your problem with surgery... if you talk to a family physician, they'll usually try medicine, or refer you to an "expert" in a given field... who will use surgery or medicine to treat your problem... depending on how their "emphasis of training" goes.

For years, chiropractic was banned in many states because it was an alternative to western medicine, but as more and more "medical" doctors used it, it became accepted, and it keeps me in pretty good shape, since I have a "bone problem" that requires that kind of treatment. I don't take medicines for it, I don't need surgery, but the chiropracter can adjust my hip, and all the pain goes away and it's "normal" until I throw it out again. Of course, my orthopedic doctor wanted to operate on it, but he's the same one who missed me having a broken hip when it was broken... so I'm sticking with the chiropracter. He, at least, figured out what the problem was...


The physicans oath first is 'Do No Harm'.

... yeah, right... that's why no one ever sues a doctor...
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#153519 - 06/04/06 07:32 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so... I am to gather that there is no standard reference for chi-based healing or chi-based striking. it's interpretive.

#153520 - 06/04/06 07:55 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Again Victor makes some pertinent and salient points...

...the reason I study it from the healing perspective. (You know me, I'm a peaceful, loving kinda guy)...

There is no standard reference as far as I know. There are a few good books which attempt to explain TCM and present case studies from various medical perspectives.

Ted Kaptchuk's "The Web that has no Weaver" is a good starting point for the TCM initiate. There are other equally good TCM references that say pretty much the same thing.

"Grasping the Wind" is a good basic acu-point reference, but it's really really brief. Also, the point functions and its roles only makes sense within the totality of the TCM framework.

But if you want to study the points for killing/hurting, you won't find it in any TCM references - as Victor says re: "Do no harm"... TCM is also not about doing harm.

#153521 - 06/04/06 08:58 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I see. so Dim Mak study relies on western anatomy (which is well documented), but explains how/why it works with Chinese chi-flow theory/beliefs (which is subject to interpretation).

#153522 - 06/04/06 09:35 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Ed,

No Dim Mak does not rely on Western Medical theory.

First does anyone have any credible person who's teaching Dim Mak after all, or is this just a pleasant theoretical discussion? I've never heard of anyone (discounting the deceased Count Dante). Is Dim Mak just a legend rumbling around the corners of our minds?

I don't know.

Montague and associate compiled two very extensive looking books combining Dim Mak material, Traditional Chinese Medicine (which is not Dim Mak) to try and tie it together, and used Contempory Western Medicine and Anatomy in conjunction with the descriptions.

My friend/student with his Surgeon's knowledge both confirmed some of the material (such as the use of the carotid sinus in Montague's book) but he also found errors in anatomy, which brings the question about the books true merit. What if (my cute terms now) kill point 13 is actually power point 19 and instead of offing the dude, you turn them on to off you in turn.

That's a joke of course, but it's also the rub. How do you trust this material.

My older humble analysis of the available bubishi translations raises the point, which one do you trust, and some of the material offered seems contraditory, even bringing into question if the bubishi is one work, or a compilation of different works, with no effort to deal with differences.

It is well documented that Karate instructors catalogued viatal points. Funakoshi did so beginning in 1922 and onward. Mutsu's extensive work in 1933 went into vital points in detail.

Vital points may or may not be dim mak, depending on, definition, but they clearly work, at least they're big owies if nothing else, and they are clearly much more.

One Chinese system, Northern Eagle Claw, only offers one set of vital point charts, but terribly extensive two person drills making use of points a true art, and there are many arts doing similar work in many different systems of study. For example, imo, the higher level of aikido acutally is using the persons aviodance of pain, at a instant subconscious level, to allow them to throw themselves out of the way of perceived pain, often before it's felt.

So there are lots of interesting studies you can make, if you have an infinite amount of time.

Whether these studie constitute Dim Mak, and it interelates to healing arts that have nothing to do with death, or extreme pain, whatever, depends on how willing you are to take things on faith.

Or from direct experience.

Unfortunately, I've traned with many great people who can turn you into a turnip, but they've never focused on how to use their art in the extreme, though their ability and technique can readily do so.

And the most extreme example I trained with, was adamant that it was immoral and unethicial to even consider such discussion.. even while his training to extremely levels obviously makd the potential real.

I primarly teach childern, and a handfull of adult friends. We don't kill people or try to do so. Nor do I attempt to heal anyone. If someone's ill or injured I would support them to obtain relief as they feel appropriate.

Whether Western Medicine, Chinese Medicine, Native Americian treatment, or Allowing God to enter their life and heal them.

It would upset Doc, but I am what I am, nothing more or less.

BTW Doc agrees, if the Doctor is an Internist, they will focus on one type of treatment, if they're a surgeon, they will focus on other types of treatment, and so forth.

Doctors are not perfect, but they have their uses a well as others do.

In the end we make our own choices.

But Dim Mak...... just rhetoric as far as I've seen to date.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#153523 - 06/04/06 10:11 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina

Dim Mak study relies on western anatomy

Gee Ed, do Eastern anatomies have different structures than western anatomies?.. or would the nerves and meridians be the same?


explains how/why it works with Chinese chi-flow theory/beliefs

I thought the last 14 pages were getting you to the point of understanding that it's based on TCM... forget the "chi ball" crowd and focus on strategic points in the body that cause problems. Now, if it's called the "carotid sinus" in western medicine or ST-9 in TCM, what's the problem? Both systems know what kind of problems it causes and how to work around the area to effect cures.

I'm sure the "old texts" of TCM use chi descriptions in their literature, but you should read some of our own "Civil War" medical literature... or should we still call gangrene "stench infection"?

You seem unwilling to accept the fact that TCM used many of the same methods and types of cures found in western medicine. It's not like they were using incantations to drive out the evil spirits, they just described their findings and methods differently.

Many of our "western medicines" are poisons, so how do you suppose that we found out exactly how much to allow someone to ingest without harm?.. or because it was "western medicine" that they just knew how much to use... I don't think so.

About half of modern medicine's advances were made during the Holocaust, when scientists used people as guinea pigs, so please don't tout the "do no harm" aspects of modern western medicine. "Clinical trials" are still using people for guinea pigs, and the results aren't always "excellent"... there was a recent case of a perfectly healthy college student that is now in a coma from reaction to one of "western medicine's" new drugs... what part of the "chi theory" caused that?

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#153524 - 06/04/06 10:42 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Is it safe to say that western medicine evolves and, in time, improves upon itself? and TCM (being traditional and historic) is static, accepting it as it is?

the only thing I'm trying to figure out now, is where's the beef? was it passed along by word of mouth? or perhaps text in Chinese which has yet to be translated/published to English? I'm not trying to upset anyone, just asking where the source info is.

In the meantime, I'll try to read up on TCM and Chi theory history. ...maybe that will lead me to asking a better question.

#153525 - 06/04/06 11:17 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I think both systems use the treatments that they know which work... whether it's by "magic potion" or massage, or psychology. And to answer your other question, I think that both systems of medicine use what they know now, whether it's TCM or western medicine, or the combination of the two.

What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

#153526 - 06/05/06 01:04 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
I believe thats true. some TCM is therepudic. other TCM, western medicine calls it placebo and it has proven to be a better than chance help. they just don't really understand how placebo works. the mind is a powerful thing. still, if it helps, it helps.

ok, now I have some groundwork in answer to the threads original question...but first...lets have some fun...

here is an interesting mix of east and west:
"Life Force Boosted Radionics Devices"

now, back to chi:

ok, back to reality...

some history I was looking for, taken from various sources:

During the Spring/Autumn Period (770-426 b.c.) and the Warring States Period, (476-221 b.c.) the basic principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine were developed, including the theory of yin/yang imbalance as the root cause of illness, the role of the Five Elements (Earth, Water, Air, Fire and Metal), modes of diagnosis (tongue and pulse) and healing (acupuncture, herbs, qigong and diet). The "three treasures" of the human body, "Qi" or vital energy, "Jing" or life essence, and "Shen" or spirit were viewed as the key to vibrant health.


The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine, or Huang Ti Nei Jing, written sometime during the Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 220).


Shen Nong is accredited with being the mythical forefather of TCM, given the status of first herbalist and god of husbandry. He taught how to raise crops, rear domestic animals and recognise herbs through taste. Huang Ti (2674 BC), or the Yellow Emperor, is accredited with being the pioneer of Chinese Medical science, along with Chi Po with whom Huang spoke, discussed and created the basis of Chinese medical knowledge. This would later become the "Huang Ti Nei Jing", or, the "Yellow Emperors Classic", a text recording this primary understanding at approximately 300BC. However from as early as 1700BC records of remedies and conditions were kept written on shells and bones, and from 400BC complete herbal formulas were kept.


The Huang Dei Nei Jing is the oldest and most important medical book to originate from China. Its author and origin is unknown, but is thought to have been written during the Warring States period (475-221 B.C.) by numerous authors (Yanchi 1995, p2).

From this ancient classic comprised of two books; the Suwen 'Plain Questions' and the Lingshu 'Miraculous Pivot', came the basic foundations of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM). It introduced the five-element theory, Yin & Yang, causes of disease, the pathology and physiology of the Zangfu organs, interaction of Blood and the channel system. All subsequent texts built upon the foundations laid down by the Huang Dei Nei Jing.

and here is the name of THE book:

Huang Ti Nei Jing Su Wen.

here's the problem, a really good neutral English translation of it is difficult to find. here is a contemporary translation:

here is a little bit of a different translation, first few pages:
but thats a problem since it's translated by someone who sells the method for a living.

any ideas?

#153527 - 06/05/06 01:41 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Victor Smith]
underdog Offline

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Well stated and I'm going to keep studying (ethical or not). It also explains and explains why I don't get upset, why/when different medical authorities will differ about the efficacy of a certain attack. You just can't find a good double blind study research artical on blood choke or any other attack techniques in a reputable medical peer reviewed journal. What's wrong?
The older I get, the better I was!

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