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#153398 - 05/29/06 10:17 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
what exactly was I dodging? I've been consistant throughout. Dim mak is bunk and I haven't recommended books. pretty simple.
If I had recommended randomly searched stuff like you did, you wouldn't have chimed in with your justifications for spending time chasing a myth and reading Dillman.

here's the real bunk part that gets everyone: lets take your ST-9. are you honestly saying there will be a drastically different reaction from a hard strike to 1" away from ST-9 ? ST-9 causes death (or 'eventual death' lol) but 1" away is a K.O.??? The 'eventual death' theory never takes into account preexisting conditions. maybe the guy you just hit smoked 3 packs and drank a fifth of whiskey a day...eventual death is a certainty. the hit to the neck might have brought him to the hospital, but his diagnosis was long overdue.

dodge this: in your first post you mention 'medical evidence'. lets have it. stats of a 1 in a trillion baseball to the chest?


kosh, funny. I was taught to drop them. if I had time to aim, then it's a bonus. you?

guys, good debate. I like to be proven wrong, it's the best time to learn. since this is a book forum, I probably shouldn't have allowed it to continue, I can move this to the appropriate place if need be, but for now we'll keep it here.

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#153399 - 05/29/06 11:36 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, calm down... we're just talking here...

Okay, since "Dim Mak is bunk", then is the Chinese Medicine that it's based on also "bunk"? What about acupuncture and acupressure? All this stuff is interrelated, so I need to know which parts work for you and which ones don't so I can make my arguments coherent.

To be truthful, I'm not actually trying to convince you that Dim Mak works or doesn't, I'm just trying to figure out how you can select a target for karate if you don't think there are hitting points on the body that are more effective than others... I've already told you that most of the information out there about Dim Mak is out of date, but I want to know how you pick a target if you don't think that one hit will do the job when another one won't... or do all "hits" count equally?

Will a punch to the side of the head do equal damage to a clean shot to the solar plexus... or do they have different effects? What about a shuto to the clavicle-carotid sinus area as opposed to a "floating rib" shot? How about that shuto to the clavicle-C/S and one to the kidneys... how would you choose between those and why?

To answer your specific question, there is a difference between hitting the tsubo exactly right and being offline... probably more than an inch, but enough to change the dynamic at the nerve/artery site. Yes, you might get a knockout, and yes you might still kill the guy. The neck is a very tricky place to work, and there's more going on up there than most people know. Blunt force in that area is always dangerous.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153400 - 05/30/06 02:34 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
wordtwister, I am calm: I never said anything for you to jump to the conclusion - "I'm just trying to figure out how you can select a target for karate if you don't think there are hitting points on the body that are more effective than others."



blantent twisting of my words. here's what I'm saying, and I'm typing slowly...

If a strike to one general area, lets say side of the neck, has the same effect as someone who has years of training targeting an area the size of a dime...then that laser targeting acuracy training was for nought.

I aim for the side of the neck. you aim for some imaginary point on the side of the neck...

whats the difference and give proof.

If there is no proof, then maybe my time is better spent just going for the general area of the side of the neck instead of some ancient human roadmap having no basis in modern science.

meridians? open up a cadaver and show me these pathways. accupressure is massage. accupuncture is placebo. believing in these things is not understanding ki/chi. (it's not an automatic system like blood, air or electrical flow, you have to train to make chi work). and Chinese Medicine ? you mean like the medicine stuff in the bubishi which has been proven to have NO medical basis whatsoever? is that the medicine you mean?

at best, meridians may happen to intersect at some nerve points....geezuz with so many meridians, they are bound to cover a nerve area. and especially nerves when pressed aganst bone, ouch...yes they hurt....but kill? not provable and not useful.

on top of all that, relying on hitting an area the size of a dime at the precise angle during the heat of battle, would be like trying to put on your seatbelt when you realize you are about to crash.

I'm going to move this thread now...so others know about it and can correct my facts with their facts.

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#153401 - 05/30/06 04:04 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
wordtwister,hahaha,I like that. Please demonstrate dim mak on yourself on youtube. You would be world famous,dead,but world famous.

Dim mak is [censored],period. I'm not saying you are stupid if you believe it and I'm not saying you aren't,but you are if you do.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#153402 - 05/30/06 06:57 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Ed, I asked a question... not drew a conclusion. You typed a page full of bluster, but never answered any of my questions... and I didn't twist anything you said, I just changed the conversation since we had hit an impasse.

Now, let me type slowly for you... how do you select targets for your karate punches and kicks? Does one target have more significant value than others? If so, why?

I don't know enough three and four letter words to make this any simpler...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153403 - 05/30/06 07:18 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: BrianS]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I'm not saying you are stupid if you believe it and I'm not saying you aren't,but you are if you do.




Stop hiding behind Ed... make your own arguments. You have no idea what I believe or don't. Maybe you two can get together and create a logical argument about target selection... but I doubt it.

I try never to argue with an idiot because somebody walking up on the conversation might not know who's who...

See.. I went to insult school too...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153404 - 05/30/06 07:52 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
here is the only 'impasse' I see:

'medical evidence'.

as in, I'm still waiting for some. actually, I'll make it easier and ask, please show me any medial evidence of anything concerning the concept of meridian manipulation.

nerve strikes, I'll buy.

meridians which flow chi throughout the body via some imaginary/invisible delivery system is simply a belief not based on ANY medical fact.

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#153405 - 05/30/06 08:17 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Wristtwister -

Quote:

The neck is a very tricky place to work, and there's more going on up there than most people know.




I do agree with that. While I am not a beleiver of Dim Mak for the most part, I have twice in my life KO'd someone with a neck strike as part of classroom training (not forcefully) - although all the other (literally) hundreds of times else did not.

So that would lead me to believe that angles and targeting may make a difference, as I have no other explanation why KO's happen sometimes but not others.

However, the amount of practice that this seems to require would make Dim Mak impractical ("low percentage") at best.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#153406 - 05/30/06 09:52 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: MattJ]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
First of all guys, what`s with the insults? It`s a pretty interesting thread - without the insults.

Quote:

kosh, funny. I was taught to drop them. if I had time to aim, then it's a bonus. you?




I meant when you practice. I doubt that if you practiced shooting in a general area that you would be able to drop many (people?). Aiming at practice makes you a better shooter, no? Don`t you think it is similar with dim mak?

Quote:


If a strike to one general area, lets say side of the neck, has the same effect as someone who has years of training targeting an area the size of a dime...then that laser targeting acuracy training was for nought.

I aim for the side of the neck. you aim for some imaginary point on the side of the neck...

whats the difference and give proof.

If there is no proof, then maybe my time is better spent just going for the general area of the side of the neck instead of some ancient human roadmap having no basis in modern science.




Who says it has the same effect? Anyways, aim small, miss small maybe? If you focus your strike on one point isn`t it stronger than if you don`t focus and your strike just lands where it lands?

Quote:

meridians? open up a cadaver and show me these pathways. accupressure is massage. accupuncture is placebo. believing in these things is not understanding ki/chi. (it's not an automatic system like blood, air or electrical flow, you have to train to make chi work). and Chinese Medicine ? you mean like the medicine stuff in the bubishi which has been proven to have NO medical basis whatsoever? is that the medicine you mean?




Hmmm, I opened up a radio and I didn`t see any radio waves in it??
You don`t have to train to make chi work... If Chinese Medicine doesn`t have a western medical basis or something, doesn`t mean that it`s bunk...

Quote:

nerve strikes, I'll buy.




Don`t nerve strikes fall under dim mak as well? That`s the way I see it, dim mak has many levels.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153407 - 05/30/06 10:02 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: MattJ]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Matt, agreed...just like a difference in effect between hitting the solar plexus vs hitting a few inches higher in the sternum.

targeting vital areas is a good and worthwile thing to bring someone down as quick as possible. I mean, who would want to hit someone in the shoulder as oppossed to the neck if the goal is to bring them down...common sense. It just doesn't work the way it is often sold. and it definitely has no business claiming to cause death or later organ failure. Other than the tiny fraction % random chance of that happening after a confrontation anyway.

pressure points when defined as vital targets, nerve targets, disrupting blood flow, etc to cause pain, a reaction, or in some areas unconscienceness make perfect sense and are reproducable with practice. This is what Dim-Mak guys are demonstrating when they want you to buy into the 'disrupting chi flow' explaination of what is going on.

my only point of pressure is the myth of Dim Mak that gets sold to the gulible as learning precise kill switches by pressing the right button along an ancient pre-medical canal map suppossedly cycling chi energy thru our body. The other part of the bunk is justifying the level of precision when comparred to the %chance of intended outcome.

it simply doesn't have a basis in medical fact or even sensability. save your money for a medical anatomy book, not a dim mak cartoon.

lol:
http://www.geocities.com/aikido_samuray/china/dimmak/dimmak2.jpg

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