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#153508 - 06/03/06 12:32 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
just to clarify what I was 'marching towards'....because if there is anything that is more annoying to me, it's when the intent of my words get retranslated.

specific example: hitting the side of a neck at a downward angle is the most I can hope for when in the position to do so. my 30 years of part-time training allows me that much accuracy at least. aiming for the throbbing vein or hidden from sight nerve on that side of the neck and training my angle to be as close to the prescription for disaster is, TO ME, not productive given the reliability of it's outcome when compared to my 'general' strike. As Victor alluded - If anything, I might want to learn Dim Mak, so I specifically DON'T kill someone by accident.

you'd have cause to say my way sucks (you didn't say that, but youd have cause to) since you are more accurate with strikes, but I'd be willing to bet either one of us could deliver a hit to any part of a neck with decent effect. also, one more point...sometimes we don't have the luxury of scoping our target visually, it becomes a feel. If someone can locate and strike a specific surface target (put a dot on someones neck) as oppossed to 'just somewhere on the neck' on an unfamiliar opponent without looking, they have my respect...that would simply be amazing and is way above my ability. I wouldn't respect it as more effective, but I'd respect the control and accuracy for it's own sake.

I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree, just acknowledge you understand what I'm saying and at least see the logic, flawed or solid.

but in both of our cases, hitting an area somewhere within 5 inches or within 1 inch - the bad guy goes down...so what is there to argue about.

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#153509 - 06/03/06 05:36 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Eyrie,

You are right, 'BTW, it's maggots that eat dead flesh... not leeches.', which is only proof why i'm not authorized to speak long on medical matters, though i think the principle i was talking about still applies.
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#153510 - 06/03/06 07:30 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

I'm not looking for you to agree or disagree, just acknowledge you understand what I'm saying and at least see the logic, flawed or solid.




Okay... there is logic on both sides of the argument.

Quote:

but in both of our cases, hitting an area somewhere within 5 inches or within 1 inch - the bad guy goes down...so what is there to argue about.




I don't know, but I'm sure it'll come up...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153511 - 06/03/06 07:43 AM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
eyrie, 'oops I did it again'.

here is where you left off:
Quote:

Otherwise, we could talk about hitting nerve or "pressure" (as used in modern medicine) points and discuss the short, medium and long term effect of hitting such points or why it creates specific and predictable physiological responses.




one question to start it off: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'.

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#153512 - 06/03/06 12:07 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Quote:

describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'




Ed, the purpose of this genre of technique was to cause "later death" and was part of the assasination techniques of Dim Mak. If you read about the interaction of clans and between emissaries of the different countries in the area, Japan, China, and Okinawa, there was tremendous political intrique that went on, and "slow kill" strikes were used to disguise assassinations.

In a time where "road bandits" were common, an assasination could be disguised as an attempted robbery or "bandit attack" and carried out without divulging the identies of the political figures involved in ordering them. While there might be conjecture about who ordered it, usually the assasins were more than willing to take their own lives than to be captured and face their captors as prisoners.

Did it work??? who knows???

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153513 - 06/03/06 04:35 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: wristtwister]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
WOW, this thread has grown 10 pages in 5 days. Ed if nothing else, you certainly now how to stimulate discussion (whichever direction it goes).

Gavin, you mentioned extended meridians. Could you describe them? Is there any useful info on it on the net?

As for the usefulness of striking for long term effect, today it`s probably not so useful, especially for "normal" people (in contrast with WTs assasins). What use it is if my attacker gets sick or something hours after he already attacked me. I need an effect now, not later, which I think Underdog already said.
_________________________
Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#153514 - 06/03/06 05:41 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Kosh]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Kosh,
hitting any of the lung points can cause immediate problems AND long term ones. The lung meridian is one of the shortest in the body and one of the most potent... plus it's pretty accessible.

If you're looking for immediate results, try punching spleen 21 or liver 14. Both places will cause problems later as well, but if you want "access" to immediate downtime for your opponent, that's a good start.

Hit'em and hit'em hard...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#153515 - 06/03/06 07:44 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


one question to start it off: describe the usefulness in tactic for striking with 'medium and long term effect'.




I don't think it's intended primarily as a tactic, perhaps more like a side effect.

What we do in a martial context is simple: disrupt the person's ability to use power or generate power, remove their capacity to ambulate or stand up, or in the extreme, induce unconsciousness or cardiac arrest.

If you accept the TCM view that the body has an "energy" state that is in some sort of equilibrium, disrupting the energy state can cause problems down the track, if not addressed immediately.

From a medical perspective, blunt force trauma, nerve damage, internal haemorrhage, organ damage, arterial or veinous collapse, shock, etc. are likely scenarios.

However, Victor's point is particularly appropriate, since none of us here are suitably qualified to discuss this in any meaningful context without making suppositions and conjecture. Perhaps a medico (where's BuDoc?!) could suggest what the mid-long term effects might be...

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#153516 - 06/03/06 11:37 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: eyrie]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
Is there currently a standard reference for indetifying all points and their short,medium,long term effects and side effects?

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#153517 - 06/04/06 03:06 PM Re: Dim-Mak and other related stuff [Re: Ed_Morris]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ed,

There are various references, some costing literally hundreds of dollars. The question is are they accurate or reasonable. I have Montague's encyclopedia of Dim Mak, which cost a few, it looks very reasonable, but it took Doc almost not time at all to find medical inaccuracies in the descriptions.

And that's always the rub, if there is even one inaccuracy, how can you begin to trust any of the rest.

How can you prove such and such will do long term liver damage, or death 100% of the time as long as you're using reverse breathing, etc.

The medical profession is not in the business of verifying that technique guides/encyclopedia's are correct how to damage someone anyways.. The physicans oath first is 'Do No Harm'.

Which leave us what, personal testimony that such and such is true, or the right to conduce unethical experiments to determine how much damage occurs?

By modern definition the study of dim mak is non-ethical.

Of course you can always justify it by claiming the need for defensive purposes.

But you don't need that. The underlying principle is any body striking into any aspect of your body, is very much a bad idea, anytime, anyplace.

If you undestand that you don't need the book.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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