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#152877 - 06/05/05 10:32 PM TKD poll
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
What would you say the ratio is of TKD schools worldwide that are legit vs bogus (ie McDojang).

I have found a list of about 50 websites of TKD places in Massachusetts alone. out of that list, 35 showed obvious signs of Mcdojangism (very young BB, high prices, tournament acrobatics, etc, etc).

So using that rough estimate I have 35/50 which is about 70%. Looking around this immediate area using the phonebook, I find 4 TKD dojangs. one is legitimately a non-babysitting type setup. so that also fits pretty close to the 70% model.

Is it fair to say that someone will have 1 in 4 odds of finding a decent TKD dojang?

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#152878 - 06/05/05 11:16 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I'd say the number is higher than that. We have four TKD schools in my area,all are mcdojo's.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152879 - 06/05/05 11:42 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I don't want ot high-jack this thread, but... What is it about TKD that lends itself to McDojoism(is that a word??).

We all know there are Mcdojos of every style, but TKD seems to have a disproportionate amount (ref: 2005 Kintama/Sanchin31 survey).

What gives?

Page


Edited by BuDoc (06/05/05 11:43 PM)
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#152880 - 06/06/05 12:11 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: BuDoc]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I did TKD (ooooh, 'bout 25 years ago). Good basics in block, punch, kick. But that's all there is to it. Most modern TKD schools are geared toward sport competition and tournament "fighting" (I use that word VERY loosely). Black-belt in 2 years or less. (I got mine in 2). You can skip belts if you're really "good" (which my sister did - TWICE!). When they changed the old hyung to the Plague series, I decided I had enough....

The only real TKD left I think are the old kwans (CDK, ODK, MDK) - ask oldman, he knows.

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#152881 - 06/06/05 12:35 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
TraditionalTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Jackson, MI
I would say at minimum, 75% of Tae Kwon Do schools are McDojangs. Not that the ratio in other arts is any different. It is not focusing on Olympic sport style that makes a McDojang, it is focusing on money, easy and too many belt ranks, poor technique and manners, fancy uniforms in class etc. By this measure, at least 75% or more of TKD schools in America are McDojangs.
By the way, the Palgue forms do not make a school a McDojang either. It was decided decades ago by the KTA that you could not be a proud TKD student while practicing Japanese forms. I happen to like the Palgue forms and think they make very good power.

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#152882 - 06/06/05 12:55 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: TraditionalTKD]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
There are three goju schools in my area,none are mcdojo's.Mcdojo's aren't typical to goju,but I'm sure there are some.There is an aikido school it's ok,but you have to go to chicago to test past certain levels and it's in a gymnastics place,kind of mcdojoish.A kempo gung fu school,not a mcdojo.A Shorin-ryu school,not a mcdojo,but not a good school either.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152883 - 06/06/05 01:19 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I'd say on a national average, at least 75% of MA schools are mcdojo/dojang. My area seems to be a little less "mc" (eg, the schools may be run for money, but you get fairly decent instruction in most of the schools around here). Even the TKD guys around here are good dojangs.

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#152884 - 06/06/05 03:23 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: TraditionalTKD]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I'm sorry, but the moment it became an Olympic sport is the whole reason it is now a big money spinner.

And FYI, Palgue is sport kata, not SD oriented.

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#152885 - 06/06/05 03:29 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Is palgue the gymnastics stuff?
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152886 - 06/06/05 03:51 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: SANCHIN31]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't think so. But I say this with the caveat that I haven't seen much of TKD outside of the Olympic context in the last 25 or so years.

Back in the 70's when I was doing it, we were still doing shorin-ryu forms (Pinan, Tekki etc.). If you look at the older forms (even the ChangHon forms), there are vastly more hand techniques in those forms. The later Palgue and Poomse have more kicking techniques, perhaps to more closely reflect the underlying philosophy that legs have a longer reach, and to perhaps make the art distinctly Korean in falvour.

But my feeling from doing the Palgue forms was that all the good stuff was taken out because no one really understood the grappling applications in the shorin-ryu forms. E.g. the X-block was explained to me as stopping an overhead strike from a staff/knife.

Rick Clark (CDK) does an interesting comparison of hand/foot techniques in his book "Martial Arts for the University".

Let us not forget, that Tae Kyon means hand and foot, not just foot.

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#152887 - 06/06/05 04:01 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

the X-block was explained to me as stopping an overhead strike from a staff/knife.





Some people still think that!!! The instructor at the Kempo and Gung fu school told me that.He's knew I am nidan in goju. He claimed to be 8th dan and have 10 other blackbelts!
I'll have to check that book out.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152888 - 06/06/05 04:12 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I'm going to agree with you on this one Sanchin. I would never use the "x block", or upward cross block in such a situation. AKK actually has a technique that uses it for defending a stick attack, but I don't like it. Too easy to screw up, especially under that kind of stress, and we have so many other techniques that counter against the same type of attack.

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#152889 - 06/06/05 11:18 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
TraditionalTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Jackson, MI
Palgue sport poomsae? I have to disagree with you on that one. The Palgue forms were introduced before Tae Kwon Do ever became part of the Olympic movement. Perhaps you are thinking of the Tae Geuk forms.
The Palgue forms are much more traditional and focus on basic techniques. They are surely not designed to earn points.

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#152890 - 06/06/05 11:28 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: TraditionalTKD]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I thought the "Chonji" forms were the traditionally oriented ITF being originally established by General Choi Hong Hi.

This will clear up alot of misconception:
http://www.tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/15TaditionalSport.htm

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#152891 - 06/06/05 12:07 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
Eric4444 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 430
Kintama, I'm new to this board, and I live in Massachusetts as well. What area are you in? I live in New Bedford. There are two Taekwondo schools in the city. One is Kwon's TKD. They are definetly a Mcdojang. Fancy jumping kicks, 2 years for BB, "tea ceremonys" that kind of stuff. The other Tkd school is the one I attend. Gonsalves Tkd. We teach very practical techniques, low kicks, punching is considered just as important as kicking, we have joint locks, takedowns, its actually alot of Hapkido mixed in. Our founder is Master Joseph Gonsalves, I don't know if you've heard of him.
_________________________
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." ~ Sun Tzu ~

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#152892 - 06/06/05 12:20 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Eric4444]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I'm in Western Mass. but I'm familiar with the NBedford area. I'm not familiar to TKD other than what I've seen watching classes, demos and competition stuff. so your area is a 50/50 chance then lol
I'm looking into TKD only to find out what went wrong with it. or, I should say, why the sport dojangs are advertising to the public as Self-defence. The non-sport dojangs seem to have the same ratio as Karate when it comes to mcdojo vs self-defense.
So, my conservative estimate is about 3 out of 4 US TKD dojangs are false advertising. They can't be designed for martial sport and claim self-defense. It's wrong and people are getting ripped off.

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#152893 - 06/06/05 12:31 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
Eric4444 Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/05
Posts: 430
I completely agree with you. Tkd seems to have a bad reputation in the serious martial arts world. I've gone to watch demo's of some Tkd schools, as well as the other one in my city. Most schools there demo's contain things such as 720 spinning kicks, back flips, hand stands into kicks, it doesn't look like a martial art at all. I've talked online to many people who practice martial arts such as Goju Ryu, or Kenpo, etc. All of them immedietly assume I know nothing about real fighting when I say I do Tkd. That isn't true. There are still Tkd schools in the world that teach an actual martial art. The main philosophy behind what my school teaches is to keep your opponent away using kicks waist level and below, and if he moves in to use your hands, elbows, etc. We also teach takedowns, joint locks, how to escape from joint locks, as well as a few ground techniques when you reach red belt. I think we teach a pretty practical well balanced system. I mean, sure we do some point sparring too, but thats just for fun, its not our main goal. As for fancy high flying kicks, we dont do them. Although I will say, we open our demos with a black belt doing a jump side kick over 4 chairs breaking boards. However, that just seems to get everyones attention to come watch us.
_________________________
To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." ~ Sun Tzu ~

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#152894 - 06/06/05 12:50 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Eric4444]
Foundation Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 343
Hmm, am I just ignorant or are McDojo's quite rare in my area?
I'm taking Taekwondo classes where the owner (and half the time teacher) is a 6th dan black belt Korean of about 50 years old approved by WTF and he's a coach of the national competiting team. The club has several affiliations in the area. A BB is obtained in about 3.5-4 years.
Is this a McDojo? If it is all the clubs in my area are McDojos, if it isn't none are.

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#152895 - 06/06/05 01:49 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Foundation]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Foundation, I don't think it sounds like a McDojo ... and to be honest who really cares if a person goes to a McDojo or not?

I had a similar discussion with my instructor and others on Saturday. He's heard it all before and knows that the WTF takes a bad rap and at one time he considered changing the name to Martial Arts as we are a blend of Taekwondo, Hapkito and Jujitsu. But then he thought why as he was proud of what he is and does and decided against changing it.

He even expressed his opinion on McDojo's. I can't remember it word for word but he basically said if people join up, learn something and come away with a good attitude then it is all okay. If everybody had a good attitude then the world would be a better place. Is that really bad?

I've known that my instructor was trained Taekwondo and Hapkito as one. I always assumed that he trained/trains Jujitsu as a black belt and brought this to our school to add to our training. After further discussions on Saturday he told me this wasn't the case. His Master taught it all and the reason he got his black belt in Jujitsu was more for business purposes as people want to see that a person has a black belt in an art before they will believe that they can teach it.

When training in Jujitsu, Kickboxing and Muay Thai he wasn't given much respect from those teaching once they heard he was from Taekwondo. But after he easily proved his skills he definitely earned it. This all boils down to his instruction from his Master. And his Master ... and others out there ... teach a complete system that covers punching, kicking, throwing, sweeping, grappling, etc. They are out there you just have to look for them.

Who cares if Taekwondo gets a bad name ...especially WTF. Not all schools are the same ... and the same can be said for any other art. Just be proud of who you are and what you are taking. You live your life for you ... not because of what others say. I would challenge any of these people who bash Taekwondo to come to my school and others. They would change their minds quickly.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#152896 - 06/06/05 01:52 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Foundation]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
not necessarily. Remember, a mcdojo is all about money. A bad dojo is all about Ego.
McDojos are bad because they sell ego, and not the SD skills as advertised.
Bad dojos could have honest non-money hungry intentions but just don't have a clue and don't even try to get a clue about SD. usually, the sensei are content with the knowledge they have without trying to further their skills. (e.g. a lazy dojo)
If you are studying a style designed for sport and you are training for and doing competitions and the sensei is honest about SD non-effectiveness... it's cool and everyone is happy. If a dojo trains for sport and advertises self-defense...that isn't cool. people will take that for years before finding out that the sport they studied does not translate into SD training. Hopefully, they don't find out the hard way when they try doing head kicks to someone with a knife.
I assume people would react differently when they find out they have been studying neither 'traditional' nor practical self-defense. correct me if I'm wrong, because this is just an educated guess:
People that find out their dojo is non-self defense effective have the following reaction...
Some defend their dojo reguardless due to pride or loyalty. (probably most common)
Some will bring the topic up with their sensei who will convince them that after more years of training they WILL be able to use the training in SD situations.
Some quit and never take another MA.
Some quit and search harder for a good dojo.
Some continue anyway because they like the sport aspect.
Some continue anyway with the goal of opening their own business (dojo) someday.
Some refuse to look at how other styles train in fear they might not like what they will realize. (again, pride and loyalty)

Here is where the grey line is, and it's where many people feel justified calling their sport as self-defense: SOME techniques in sport are transferable to SD. If you get really good at throwing punches and kicks for competition it's alot better than nothing for SD right? Thats right, but you have to be aware of which techniques and when they are appropriate so you don't end up making the SD situation worse. In SD situations for example, spinning attacks are not a good idea...turning your back period is never a good idea. you might be all that in competition but I guarentee you are going down if you try a spin kick in a bar fight.

Anyway, my motivation is not bashing...it's to inform and provoke questions enough for you to do your own research to really be honest and ask yourself if what you are learning is what you intended to learn. Lots of junk and sheisters out there... cavet empor, let the buyer beware.

Take care and keep your eyes and minds open.

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#152897 - 06/06/05 04:06 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
SkInHoUnD Offline
Member

Registered: 04/13/05
Posts: 310
Loc: Canada
I dont think theres any more bogus TKD schools than there are in any other MA. Ive seen many bogus Karate schools, Jujutsu schools, hell, even ninjutsu schools.If your spending months in a MA and your not getting good at your art then mayby its you.An idiot master could train a prodigy easily, and a grand master who taught his whole life could teach the worst practitioner of an art ever.I think the problem is most people get in the habit of judging every college,school,dojo, etc in comparison to theyre own.Some schools may have more focus in different areas and prices may vary...but i think your gona have a hard time not learning an art if your dedicated no matter what unless of course your training litterly consists of watching kung fu movies and eating cheeseburgers.

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#152898 - 06/06/05 05:35 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: SkInHoUnD]
Ryushosen Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/02/05
Posts: 13
Heh, yea tkd in my area is about 75% mcdojo to actual ma. My dojang focuses on self defense aspects of the techniques. We practice the practical kicks, none of this acrobatic 720 kicks. We do participate in tourneys bout our view is ma and defense first and then tourney. Personally i think that forms are worthless but thats just me.

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#152899 - 06/06/05 08:41 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: TraditionalTKD]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I stand corrected. It was indeed Tae Guek that I did, but I think it existed BEFORE Palgue was introduced. Mind you, this was 25+ years ago and my memory is somewhat faulty at this point (u know, old age and everything).

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#152900 - 06/07/05 12:56 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
skeeterzirra Offline
Member

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 77
Loc: Cedar Rapids, IA, USA
I was learning palgue forms before there was a wtf. I believe that taeguk was made by and for wtf. Any oldsters learn taeguk before 73?

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#152901 - 06/07/05 02:40 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
TraditionalTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Jackson, MI
The Palgue forms were introduced before the Taegeuk forms. The Palgue forms were developed by the KTA to standardize the forms that everyone practiced. Previously, several different forms sets were used by by the different Kwans. The Taegeuk forms came later in an attempt to make the forms more "Korean".

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#152902 - 06/07/05 02:59 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: TraditionalTKD]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
To everyone. How many TKD schools are in your area? How many are mcdojo's?
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152903 - 06/07/05 05:06 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
If you want to define area as being anything I can drive to within four hours, there's at least a dozen. Any of the ones I had contact with have shown no real signs of mcdojoism, except maybe the teachers wearing an expensive uniform.

The only one I could say for sure was a mcdojo closed down within a few years of it opening, it just couldn't compete in the atmosphere up here.

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#152904 - 06/07/05 08:51 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
Gemini Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 333
Loc: NY, USA
Quote:

I did TKD (ooooh, 'bout 25 years ago). Good basics in block, punch, kick. But that's all there is to it.



*stares at the screen, speechless*
Because this statement encompasses all there is to TKD, I thought I'd ask you long you practiced the art to be able to make such a summation? Maybe save myself years of toil.

Quote:

Most modern TKD schools are geared toward sport competition and tournament "fighting" (I use that word VERY loosely). .




Again, what source was this information based on? Is there a world wide TKD enlistement book somewhere?
You make some amazing revelations. Or is this maybe just your opinion?
Sparring isn't fighting. Isn't intended to be. Please tell me this isn't still news to some people.

Through competitions, I've had the ability to get a good look at many schools and meet the Owners/Sabumnims/Instructors/Students of them. In my area, competition is encouraged, but the main focus is still SD TKD.

I've noticed a growing correlation between McDojang's and Competition sparring. "These schools focus on sparring so they suck!". I'm getting real tired of hearing that. The reason sparring is encouraged is because, though it is NOT street fighting, it does teach things you need to know about yourself on both the mat and the street.
*Focus (empty mind)
*Speed
*Distance (effective range)
*Power
*Timing
The better someone understands these thigs, the better prepared they will be regardless of the venue.
True there are differences, but everyone always seems to focus on them and not the similarities. "He has a great flying spin kick but I bet he'd get mopped up on the street". I think I could safely say that most people who practice anything to this degree could probably figure out the difference. Why is it always assumed because you are capable of one thing, that you aren't of another? It's such an amazing generalization that I hear over and over, yet never a single example of anyone who ever did it.

I believe you hear the word McDojang in TKD more because it's stands to reason since it's the most practiced MA in the world, it would recive to most critism. (It sucks so bad, everyone wants to do it). Yea, that makes sense. But other than people stating their opinion as fact on here, I don't know that the ratio of good schools to bad ones is any higher than any other MA. In other words, I have no idea.

I think the word McDojang is used to generally. (Just my opinion). To me, it's a school that puts the $ above the need to teach students MA's. I've know of a McDojang chain that produces very good practitioners becaue the Sabumnims are top quality, but the owner only cares about the money. So is it really a McDojang? There are flags for potential McDojangs but they don't always mean they are.
*Young BB's. I've seen some very good ones.
*Web Sites. While you may be able to get a feel, you can't usually get enough real information to make a determination.
*BB's in 1 to 2 years on a regular basis. Real flag raiser to me.
*After school programs. So what? If there's a need, and it gets people training that otherwise could not, what's wrong with it.
*Fancy uniforms. Means nothing.

Palgwe was replaced by Taeguk. Both are WTF.

Regards,

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#152905 - 06/07/05 12:06 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Gemini]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Well I do ITF, great fun, hard work and certainly not a mcDojo. Tae Kwon Do is bound to have many more McDojos I think, because it is the most popular martial art in the west, or at least it has the most practitioners. I think alot of instructors just use the name Tae kwon do in order to give people some idea of what they teach.

My advice is to evaluate Dojos on their affiliation with national organisations and on how old their instructor is. I hope this causes no offense, but I don't believe a person with under 12 years of experience is good enough to teach others as though they were an expert. I mean, it take 4 odd years to get a black belt, and another 2-3 years for a 2nd Dan.

Ofcourse this is just my very subjective opinion. I have only a limited experience of Dojos, having stayed in the same area since I started. I am also English, and no little of what America is like for dojos.

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#152906 - 06/07/05 12:18 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Gemini]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Gemini, are you trying to convince us or yourself? It is what it is, and people do what they do ...and all those zen-like justification phrases. lol kidding. seriously though, you can't explain away the fact that I can go to any random town in the US and within a 10 mile radius have a 1 in 4 chance of locating a TKD school that puts form over money and function over form.

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#152907 - 06/07/05 12:55 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
Gemini Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 333
Loc: NY, USA
Quote:

Gemini, are you trying to convince us or yourself? It is what it is, and people do what they do ...and all those zen-like justification phrases. lol kidding. seriously though, you can't explain away the fact that I can go to any random town in the US and within a 10 mile radius have a 1 in 4 chance of locating a TKD school that puts form over money and function over form.




True enough, Kintama, it just seems to me what one considers a McDojo, another does not. That's why I used the example I did. By definition, it's a McDojo but turned out some excellent students because of very capable instructors. I'm just wary of sweeping generalizations. I have no evidence to dispute what you're saying, but I can't say I necessarily agree with it either. 1 in 4? Maybe, but this 70% stuff...I'm sorry but I don't buy that.

BTW, zen? ouch. Do I really sound like that?

Regards,

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#152908 - 06/07/05 01:07 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Gemini]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
ummmm... 1 in 4 implies 3/4 which is 75%.

so, you agree with a 75% figure, but 70% is out of the question?

I'm too harsh sometimes, I know this. I'm working on it.

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#152909 - 06/07/05 01:31 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
Gemini Offline
Member

Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 333
Loc: NY, USA
Quote:

ummmm... 1 in 4 implies 3/4 which is 75%.

so, you agree with a 75% figure, but 70% is out of the question?



I'm too harsh sometimes, I know this. I'm working on it.




lol. I seen you harsh. That wasn't it. [wipes seat from forehead]

1 in 4 implies 25%. I was assuming you meant 1 in 4 was bad.

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#152910 - 06/07/05 04:01 PM Re: TKD poll [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kintama and Gemini and Eyrie,

I think you hit on a lot of it. The problem you will note is that most people in McDojos may not recognize that they are in one.

You have to remember a couple of things, that because of the ubiquitousness of TKD, the real dojangs are left to be looked at among a lot of chaff. Because TKD is so very available, it is in some locations that are not accessible by other MAs simply because there are none. This might make you guffaw, but think about it this way: Since someone has been training at these multitudes of McDojangs, there is a greater likelyhood that one of these guys would start a class at a YMCA in a town of 10,000 people as opposed to a smaller, legitimate dojo being there. Therefore you might have a 3rd degree BB with 5 years experience (who probably thinks it is normal for 5 yrs to equal a 3rd degree) who opens up shop and regains connections to his old organization and starts to push out ignorant BBs for bucks.

Then there is that question of money. With rare exception, I have seen most good schools sort of feed on themselves where, when money is tight, the instructor chips in. This way, there is no compromise in promotion testing or money to be made by selling overpriced patches and instructor signed doohickey's, or any other dojo scams. Now, as other's pointed out money is not the question (the most expensive schools, in my opinion these days...for popularity or utilility, are BJJ classes), however....as noted previously when money becomes the sole selling point of the art, something has to give. And I will give the nod to BJJ practioners....all that I have met have earned their belts...and do not pay for testing for them.

So this is what you have for the availability of the McDojo/McDojang: 1)Ignorance of the consumer- which then continues on as students become instructors teaching the same compartmentalized techniques; 2) The quest for money so that more people are paying for less....and are satisfied with it; and 3) The use of organizations as barbed wire ties that keep insiders in and outsiders out...thus limiting exposure to what is being taught elsewhere that might pique curiositiy or awareness.

You wrap all three of these things up and you get a McDojang that increases in size and keeps aligning itself in ways to pay for itself and increase membership. In this easy come world, that means promising blackbelts in one to two years, a school that tests often and which may increase the number of belts with stripes for futher subdividing what is taught all in an effort to increase requisite testing fees associated with this policy.

Now this problem is not only with TKD, again as noted above, but with it's overwhelming presence how can they all be good and survive and not be McDojos? This was a question that was given to me by the owner of one McDojo that I visited.

In that school I saw on BB who had just received it kicking a bag. He looked horrible and when I asked how long it took...one year was the answer. After I had practiced with these folks for my free invitational class and told them I had previous experience per a question directed to me.

The owner who did not show any technqiue said, if he didn't promote he would have "no business." If the MAs to you are only a business that is exactly what the student will receive....and think what all MAs are.

-B

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#152911 - 06/10/05 11:16 AM Re: TKD poll [Re: eyrie]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I was once shown by a JKD instructor why you should never use an overhead x-block or even a raising block to block a knife (unless you really have no other choice). The knife hand is liable to slide down and slice the arm or wrist of the defender. No tendons; no chance.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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