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#152233 - 06/03/05 02:00 PM The Green Dragon Society Website
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
I'll repost here so that I don't hijack the other thread.


Quote:

Originally Posted by chitaochuan
Go to www.greendragonsociety.com it gives a good description of chi tao chuan gung fu







I don't mean to start a flame war but...

I reviewed the site and found it very similar to a lot of the neo-ninja sites that had popped up over the last few years, but this one has a chinese flavor.

"Blood Matches" and making it to the "Third Circle" (you have 24 hrs to complete this and may try as many times as you wish as long as you can stand and defend yourself) left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Of couse the site states that chi tao quan is the fastest, bestest and deadliest of all gungfu styles. There are stories that can't be verified and no real concrete infomation, traceable lineages or even a technique or two to take a look at (I presume that this is because they are all too deadly to show to the general public). There's a lot of talk of 'father' to 'son' transmission and sacrificing all for the 'masters', long 'probationary' periods where you must apparently scrape and grovel just to get the oppertunity to become a student. Oy yes, and lest I forget much more scraping and groveling to be done before you are allowed to learn the secret 'internal' styles (another bad sign).

Now remember chitaochuan this is not an attack on you personally, but rather a critique of the information and content of the website that you invited us to view. Good gungfu (as well as bad) can be found all over the U.S. today with little effort and there are some very exceptional internal teachers here as well (Lou De Xiu, Ken Fish, Vince Black, Ed Hampton, Mike Sigman and on and on).

I admit I know nothing of the style of chi tao chuan, but I a bit disturbed by all of the hype of the website. Many of the same claims were made in years past(and still active in small dark places around the country) by the Chung Moo Doe crowd(cult). It would be great if you (chitaochuan) could enlighten us a bit more about the training methods and possibly a little lineage of the Green Dragon Society!

Kempo(spoiling for a good debate)man
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#152234 - 06/03/05 02:01 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

from the website greendragonsociety.com
Chi Tao is the name of an art like Gung-Fu which was modernized and refined by the late Grandmaster Ho, who killed his foe in mortal combat numerous times in his youth





Well, it is getting better all the time!
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#152235 - 06/03/05 02:19 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
How can you kill somebody multiple times?

Top
#152236 - 06/03/05 02:53 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hoo boy.....buckets of BS on that site.

Break bricks with your fingers? Hit coins 3 times before they hit the ground, blindfolded?

Oy.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#152237 - 06/03/05 03:25 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: MattJ]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Some excerpts (with comments, I can't stop myself)


Quote:

This system teaches one to fight like a Tiger, Leopard, Panther, Crane, Praying Mantis, Eagle, Black Cobra, Wild Boar Spirit-Arts.




Oookaaaayy


Quote:

These are not like the Shaolin (Buddhist System) but like the Taoist, and do not teach imitations of Animal Weapons, such as mere holding of Tiger Claws, etc. The Animals are not for developing Bones, Muscles, etc....




Really, I'm sure that comes as a suprise to a great many people.


Quote:

But through secret Meditation Techniques, the Spirit of the Actual Animal Fills the Mind of the student so He becomes... the Animal itself, in Strength, Action, Thinking, and Spirit.




You might want to take some paxil for that...


Quote:

This is highly dangerous




Well, at least we agree on something.


Quote:

and only this society traditionally teaches the Eight Animal (8 lower Trigrams) System.




And thank god for that.



Quote:

The goal of all of these Animals is to become the Tiger-Spirit of the Animal they study (including the Tiger who must "face" himself). Then they become a dragon (master). There are higher and lower types of Dragons (Masters). However, the Eight Animals are all born of the Womb of Woman; the Dragon is born in Heaven, that is to say, Man gives birth to a Dragon in himself




Hunh?


Quote:

Most Ranks are not for Forms or Diplomas. They are "Commissions" to execute Power, Command, Authority in the Name and Reputation of your Society and Master, and if withdrawn from you, then you have no rank.




I'm thinking of a word that rhyme's with 'ult'.

And of course the best for last...


Quote:

Successful completion of the ITP is by participating in our secret (closed door) Blood Matches which are exclusive to Chi Tao Chuan Gung-Fu for the Instructor Certificate of Rank to be awarded.




Riiiggghhttt...

Quote:

However, one may face the Trials of the Three Circles of Combat for the same Certificate. If you elect the "Trials," you have from midnight to dawn to enter the Third Inner Circle; you can try as many times as you like, as long as you are able to get up and defend yourself.




Is there alcohol involved?


Now, I am just having some fun here but there does seem to be a very high level of sillyness to the content of this website.

I have also googled for Grandmaster Ho and Master Tien Chi something-or-other and the only references are on the webpage itself. Now this does not necessarily mean that this is some sort of made up style with no actual lineage to a valid line of gungfu but it ain't helpin' the case either.

A point in their favor is that they at least are advertising that they will be conducting a few seminar's of taijiquan, xingyiquan and baguazhang with mysterious masters from china. Odd that the names of the masters (Yang and Gao) are very famous names of older (and deceased in the case of Gao) internal teachers of these arts.

ie Yang taijiquan and Gao style Baguazhang. Weird.

I would welcome anyone from the website or green dragon society to come by and give us some learnin' about your system and teachers. Otherwise you may be subjected to more of my indellible wit and sarcasm.

Kempo(using the power of the geko)man
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#152238 - 06/04/05 01:24 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Who said Dux had a monopoly? Anyone can participate in SECRET matches to prove their greatness. Just ask Soto.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#152239 - 06/04/05 05:21 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
ShaolinChaunFa Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 9
Loc: Hull, ENGLAND
LOL....Kempoman has such a way of getting his point across!

Top
#152240 - 06/09/05 07:05 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Kman, I really enjoy watching you work!

One caveate. Don't underestimate the power of the Wild-Boar spirit art. It has taken me many years, and many Chinese Buffets to perfect. I suggest you try it before you knock it.

The rewards are great. Even if you don't reach the mastery of the 3rd level, the General Tso's Chicken and Crab Rangoon will satisfy you for a lifetime.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#152241 - 06/10/05 12:18 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: BuDoc]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
K, I don't think there can be much of a flame war.How could someone possibly defend that? It's the funniest bunch of bs i've read since comrac bas!
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152242 - 06/16/05 12:21 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: SANCHIN31]
chitaochuan Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 3
I won't start a argument on this forum with someone as smart as KEMPOMAN.Yes there are blood matches. No GREEN DRAGON SOCIETY is not a cult. NO you don't have to beg or grovel for instruction. KEMPOMAM you insult me and my art and then you want me to explain it to you.You have it all analized and you are free to belive what you want.Oh SANCHIN31 maybe you should reread that funny bs again seeing you got your ass whipped with the system you study.

Have a nice day

Top
#152243 - 06/16/05 12:44 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: chitaochuan]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Watch the language.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

Top
#152244 - 06/16/05 01:28 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
"Chi-Tao Ch'uan is the closest to Pa-Kua. Outwardly they are both the same, but inwardly they are different."-GDS website

So it's bagua, whats so secret about that?
_________________________
I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

Top
#152245 - 06/16/05 10:27 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: chitaochuan]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

I won't start a argument on this forum with someone as smart as KEMPOMAN.





My intelligence itself is a subject of much debate.



Quote:

Yes there are blood matches.





Well...then please tell us about them. Perhaps it is something as simple as whoever bleeds first loses or wins.


Quote:

No GREEN DRAGON SOCIETY is not a cult.




Then why do you come out like I have attacked you personally or you martial art directly. I have offered a critque of the information on the website, nothing more.


Quote:

NO you don't have to beg or grovel for instruction.





Uh excuse me but..

Quote:

Snipped from the Green Dragon Society Website

A person has to call and go for an interview before a Master. If accepted, he is on probationary study. After his first Rank Test, he is accepted as a student on Probation, which lasts one to three years. After the student grades are passed, he must fight to be admitted into the Third Inner Circle of the "Temple." If he can pass through this array (he has until midnight, from dawn, and can try over and over as long as he can stand up)... he receives the first rank. He is trusted as a loyal, hardworking student, though he may be the equivalent of a Black Belt in Karate!!!!!!!!! Then he spends five to seven years in another type of Probation, this is to prove to a particular Master that he is worthy of the Higher or Internal Arts. While he may be trusted, honest, and hardworking, he must learn, appreciate, and sacrifice much, in order to make a Master feel like spending his precious time (taken from the Master's own self-developments) to teach this person.




...I beg to differ.


Quote:

KEMPOMAN you insult me and my art and then you want me to explain it to you.




No if you actually read the initial post it says...

Quote:

Now remember chitaochuan this is not an attack on you personally, but rather a critique of the information and content of the website that you invited us to view.




...and yes I would like you to explain it to me. I've been at this for more than thirty years and I find it interesting to learn of other arts.


Quote:

You have it all analized and you are free to belive what you want.




I take it you actually mean analyzed (in the vein of analysis) and not analized which I guess would mean that I am being an, oh wait perhaps you did mean analized.

I believe that the website is full of hype and hoopla. I know nothing of the style. I am simply stating my opinion of the information on the site. It is poorly written and contains too much hyperbole for my taste (but most MA websites do these days).

I really would like to know more about the style.


Quote:

Have a nice day





You too, and I mean that. Please consider having an open exchange of information with me. I promise to be nice.

--K
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

Top
#152246 - 06/16/05 10:45 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Kempoman, you are being too nice.
No you are not critisizing the art, that much is clear. But what you said/implied before about the school is correct!
Too much hoop-la, how do you (royal you) expect to take this school seriously when they say things like
Quote:

Each phase is more deadly and secret than the last one.



Gimme a break!
Kung fu seccrets have being revealed a long time ago, it sounds like something that should be advertised on telemarketing to me! It doesnt mean it doesnt work, it just looks cheap and full of fabricated hype!

Top
#152247 - 06/16/05 10:55 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: MAGr]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
On the TKD forum there is a lad who asks "Which MA's are designed to kill?". He got flammed to hell but if this site is as you say then this is the kind of thing which encourages the idea. I'm suspect about anything which has to advertise itself on killing.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#152248 - 06/17/05 11:39 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: trevek]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
I'll admit that I don't often visit this section of the forum as I don't practice a chinese MA, however I dropped in out of curiosty this morning.

However, I don't need to have any experience of Chinese MA's to recognise complete crap when I see it.

Whoever put this site together has had a bit too much of the Waccy Baccy folks. And whoever is recommending that this site is of any value needs to go see a good shrink. Failing that I've got a whole load of bright pink squirrels I'd like to sell you if you're that gullible.
_________________________
John L

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#152249 - 06/17/05 12:45 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JohnL]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
PINK SQUIRRELS? REALLY?!?!?!

*RUNS to find checkbook*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#152250 - 06/17/05 12:49 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JohnL]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I do find the claims, method of entry, and the information on the webpage as highly unrealistic. I try not to knock any MA because normally, every Art has something beneficial to offer but in this case, I am at a loss.
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#152251 - 06/17/05 01:04 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: RazorFoot]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Let's just paraphrase George Orwell in Animal Farm:

Some are more deserving of condemnation that others.

-B

Top
#152252 - 07/16/05 08:50 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: chitaochuan]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

I won't start a argument on this forum with someone as smart as KEMPOMAN.Yes there are blood matches. No GREEN DRAGON SOCIETY is not a cult. NO you don't have to beg or grovel for instruction. KEMPOMAM you insult me and my art and then you want me to explain it to you.You have it all analized and you are free to belive what you want.Oh SANCHIN31 maybe you should reread that funny bs again seeing you got your ass whipped with the system you study.

Have a nice day




Well, first of all i would like to apologize for the language utilized herein. I came across this and was abit upset myself over the topic and reactions. But i offer this. I will humbly check this thread and try to bridge any misunderstandings. I only ask for the benefit of respectful conversation.

I have studied Wu Ch'uan Chi tao since 1994 and am currently a Instructor. I assure you that the art has a long US history and I will link you to other discussions found elsewhere ot demostrate it.

Of course there is the discussion of the site design. I do not maintain it, but I would say that one should read it again and understand that many of the items described there have in fact happened since about 1959. the following link is to be found on the bullshido website. I only ask that you read the moderators post. With this posted, I am humbly waiting to try to answer the questions I can.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthre...+dragon+society


Edited by Tienying (07/16/05 08:53 PM)
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

Top
#152253 - 07/16/05 09:09 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
[Quote]:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NO you don't have to beg or grovel for instruction.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Uh excuse me but..


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Snipped from the Green Dragon Society Website

A person has to call and go for an interview before a Master. If accepted, he is on probationary study. After his first Rank Test, he is accepted as a student on Probation, which lasts one to three years. After the student grades are passed, he must fight to be admitted into the Third Inner Circle of the "Temple." If he can pass through this array (he has until midnight, from dawn, and can try over and over as long as he can stand up)... he receives the first rank. He is trusted as a loyal, hardworking student, though he may be the equivalent of a Black Belt in Karate!!!!!!!!! Then he spends five to seven years in another type of Probation, this is to prove to a particular Master that he is worthy of the Higher or Internal Arts. While he may be trusted, honest, and hardworking, he must learn, appreciate, and sacrifice much, in order to make a Master feel like spending his precious time (taken from the Master's own self-developments) to teach this person.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



...I beg to differ.





Well I will start here. Since the late 50's this art has been this way. It is simply the way it is imparted. Not unlike many of the old Pais or family styles of old China. I will tell you now that this art is not one to make you a mindless sheep, but will take you through a series of 'cover' arts to help traditionally develop students. Many disagree with the old method, but it is ours & many other schools method of teaching.

I will share this though, I spent a few years of my life working inside a maximum security prison and the truths that my body was trained in, actually saved my life 3 times..in potentially lethal edged weapon situations. When I first began, I had a bad heart and asthma...through the study of Tai Chi and Chi Gung...with breathing methods...i am now healthier than I ever have been. This wasn't the result of cultish chanting or floating on air...but hard work and study. I have been exposed to TCM and herbology..with that skill I am able to assist many others.

The basis of this system is Wu Tang/Wu Dang in nature with aspects of the three internal pillars {ba gua/Hsing I/Tai Chi}.I have personally fought in the the matches since 1997 and I tell you my broken bones are proof that they exist even if you dont believe it. Also, they are NOT an exercise in brutally but a method of measure for the Adept of Chi Tao for it is our firm belief that padding and point sparring, teaches negative reactions and can hinder a proper response. Are we right or wrong? I think most of you will agree that it is NOT the path but the growth and result of walking it that matters. This has worked for us and many. Also, keep in mind that many groups do this sort of test, along with forms review and written examination. Many of them are met with negativity and judgemental responses, so they choose not to discuss them. I remember a time when I was upset over long stance drills and forms work, my Master looked at me and said, "Remeber...you actually pay the Society to make you do this willingly" That reminded me that no one is forced to walk thru the door shown to them....we always have a choice. just as you have a choice to openly listen to my words or to meet them with contempt. So ask away and I will try to answer. Please note that there are some aspects of this art that I can not openly discuss becuase I am honor bound not to. If you disagree with this stance, then do so...but understand I gave my word in this matter.

Ohh btw, if you want some insight on the history, look up the misadventures of Count Dante as is taken from the wikipedia. Before you read it, I want to state that this incident was a great shame irriegardless of Master dante's misgivings. Life was lost and it greatly changed how we dealt with the world thereafter. Read on:

On the night of April 23, 1970, he took part in the infamous "dojo war" that ended in the brutal stabbing death of his friend and student, Jim Koncevic, at the Green Dragon's Black Cobra training hall in Chicago. The tragedy left a profound mark on Keehan until his death from bleeding ulcers in 1975.

Take care and Zai Jian


Edited by Tienying (07/16/05 09:22 PM)
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

Top
#152254 - 07/16/05 11:10 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: chitaochuan]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

I won't start a argument on this forum with someone as smart as KEMPOMAN.Yes there are blood matches. No GREEN DRAGON SOCIETY is not a cult. NO you don't have to beg or grovel for instruction. KEMPOMAM you insult me and my art and then you want me to explain it to you.You have it all analized and you are free to belive what you want.Oh SANCHIN31 maybe you should reread that funny bs again seeing you got your ass whipped with the system you study.

Have a nice day




I'm sorry,I didn't realize there was a system that was unbeatable. No,I didn't get my 'ass whipped'. There were no strikes thrown incase you didn't read that.
I too,insult you and your 'art' if you can call it that with a straight face.It is all the things that Kempoman exposed it for.Feel sorry for you if you were so naive as to be dupped into it.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#152255 - 07/17/05 12:39 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: SANCHIN31]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Just for clarification...i am not chitaochuan (hence why i was upset over the language he or she used...i will try to determine who this was since it sounds like a student grade response for which i will apologize for the insult]...I should have made it clear that I am me and have my own understanding of martial morality behavior and 'yes' my Chi Tao is a proven Art with history here in the US from the 50's. I can prove this of course and my purpose here is to discuss the Art and not to argue but have constructive dialogue:)


Edited by Tienying (07/17/05 01:08 AM)
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

Top
#152256 - 07/17/05 10:15 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: nekogami13 V2.0]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Quote:

"Chi-Tao Ch'uan is the closest to Pa-Kua. Outwardly they are both the same, but inwardly they are different."-GDS website

So it's bagua, whats so secret about that?




Uhhhhh, no. That deffinately is NOT Bagua.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

Top
#152257 - 07/17/05 10:58 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Quote:

"Chi-Tao Ch'uan is the closest to Pa-Kua. Outwardly they are both the same, but inwardly they are different."-GDS website

So it's bagua, whats so secret about that?

A point in their favor is that they at least are advertising that they will be conducting a few seminar's of taijiquan, xingyiquan and baguazhang with mysterious masters from china. Odd that the names of the masters (Yang and Gao) are very famous names of older (and deceased in the case of Gao) internal teachers of these arts.

ie Yang taijiquan and Gao style Baguazhang. Weird.


Uhhhhh, no. That deffinately is NOT Bagua.




If you dont mind, can i ask how exactly are you quantifying your statement? Ba Gua...in it's definition is simply the 8 trigrams in application...while moving naturally through the universe. I have personally learned both Li Ming Ba Gua under Gao, Feng Sifu of Beijing for the last 5 years, studied Wu Tang Ba Gua at the Huashan temple, and Chen/Yang style tai chi...all in the Orient. I have heard from these teachers that Chi Tao moves like many of them...as it should since as I said above...the Art was founded on the 3 internal pillars of Ba Gua/Tai Chi/Hsing I.

Again, if anyone would please read my posts, it would be apparent that i am asking for constructive conversation. I welcome disagreement, however I make it a point to avoid ignorant critisms if I lack the information. No Chi tao isnt Ba Gua or Hsing I...but I will say that given the multitude of family variations of the Art propegated by the students of Dong hai Ch'uan Shrfu....it is possible for Ba Gua to be found in many places.


Edited by Tienying (07/17/05 04:47 PM)

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#152258 - 07/18/05 04:17 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Gentlemen, I realize this thread has its shortcomings and there are many debatable issues here but I ask that we concentrate on those issues and less on insults. I would ask that of ALL the participants in this thread. If we can not maintain a constructive and benficial conversation, I will have no choice but to close this thread.

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#152259 - 07/18/05 09:24 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: RazorFoot]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Xie Xie Ni RazorFoot
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152260 - 07/19/05 05:53 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I dont think people are bashing the art. People are bashing (and quite rightly so) the web site. You cannot claim that each phase is more deadly then the previous and more secret. That is just false advertising. And all that mysticism, serves nothing than capitalist ways. There should be honesty not mysticism, there should be clarity and transparency not probation periods. Like all McDojos, we are not bashing the art they teach but the way they teach it and promote it. Maybe your place is an exception and only promotes it in a McDojo way, but teaches it in a legitimate way. That is still unacceptable. I understand that everyone wants to sell, but if you ask a MAist what he thinks of your website, what do you expect him to say? Seriously have youread it? Its ridiculous some of the things it says.

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#152261 - 07/19/05 09:20 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: MAGr]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Yes, and I agree that the claims and representations made there are quite unrealistic to say the least. I have no problem with people expressing their opinion about the website. My request is that we do not let the feelings for the informaion on the website spill over into an attack on individuals stating opinions here on the forum pages. State your views on the issues and the discussion but do not attack the people presenting the information. Fair enough?

Scottie
_________________________
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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#152262 - 07/19/05 03:18 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: RazorFoot]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
'You cannot claim that each phase is more deadly then the previous and more secret. That is just false advertising'

Well here I have to disagree abit. There are aspects of this Art, that is more dangerous than other 'cover' arts taught by teacher's of Chi Tao. This is true for many traditional arts....and I must agree the purpose in the Website is luring...whereas mine would be just clarification of the phases. In later phases of traditional Chi Tao, one is taught to 'map' vital points while blindfolded or with the feet only. I can personally strike insertion points or vital points with percision without the benefit of sight. Is this dangerous? Yes. Secret? well 'no' ...especially since it takes years or training most feel unnecessary to do these things...and plus, I just told you . I agree that there is a serious mix of mysticism and traditional training on that site. I will be tracking down the master's there and try to deal with that. Not for anyone here...just becuase I believe it necessary for our times today.

Well as I stated the website is NOT my avenue. I just came here as a proponent of this Art. It's history in this Country is very open and researchable. There are many past and present Adepts of Chi Tao that focus on the Art and not the reported esoteric nature of its Past. not all of them train at the green dragon society. With that said, maybe we can just talk about its intrinsic nature and the styles pro's & cons?


Edited by Tienying (07/19/05 03:27 PM)
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152263 - 07/26/05 04:57 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Kempoman Offline
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Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

There are aspects of this Art, that is more dangerous than other 'cover' arts taught by teacher's of Chi Tao.




Although I think I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I understand the term 'cover' art. Does it mean a crude or rudimentary style like TKD?

Quote:

This is true for many traditional arts....and I must agree the purpose in the Website is luring...whereas mine would be just clarification of the phases.




Quote:

In later phases of traditional Chi Tao, one is taught to 'map' vital points while blindfolded or with the feet only.





So then these 'phases' would be similar to different 'trainings'.

Quote:

I can personally strike insertion points or vital points with percision without the benefit of sight.




Are you saying vital points as in 'eyes, throat, solar-plexus, groin' or as in tsubo?

I don't doubt that some engage in full contact fighting sessions. Hell I came up during the days of 'Texas Blood and Guts Karate' myself. What I find problematic is the need to make things sound more omnious and profound than they actually are.

Maybe somebody just got a little carried away with themselves on the website.

I must admit that I am having a bit of a time finding any information on chi tao (I realize I am being lazy and just googeling at this point) or its lineage.

You say it is based on the three pillars of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. What does that mean exactly? Just because something is circular does not make it anything like baguazhang nor something being linear make it like xingyiquan.

These systems have specific methods for developing and expressing power.

BTW where does Gao, Feng teach baguazhang and who did he study with? I am quite familiar with Li Zi Ming and several in his lineage.


Thanks for coming,

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#152264 - 07/26/05 05:39 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Kempoman Offline
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Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

On the night of April 23, 1970, he took part in the infamous "dojo war" that ended in the brutal stabbing death of his friend and student, Jim Koncevic, at the Green Dragon's Black Cobr training hall in Chicago. The tragedy left a profound mark on Keehan until his death from bleeding ulcers in 1975.




Actually the wiki article refers to a Green Cobra Hall. Not a Green Dragon's Black Cobra Hall.

???

--KM
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#152265 - 07/27/05 06:19 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17

Although I think I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I understand the term 'cover' art. Does it mean a crude or rudimentary style like TKD?


-When I speak of 'cover arts', you are exactly right. Things like basic sil lum Ch'uan Fa and Ch'uan Li are examples of such arts. Not to make them appear lesser, just that they are utilized to orient students to the Gung Fu method.-TY


So then these 'phases' would be similar to different 'trainings'. Are you saying vital points as in 'eyes, throat, solar-plexus, groin' or as in tsubo?

-Well this depends on the particular animal style specialty, but like Tsubo training with implements, we are taught to use other senses to exploit vital areas. I am a eagle stylist and to that end I am taught to fight blindfolded. Simply put if you touch me and dont 'drop' me, as long as we are in contact you 365 vital points are mine. Unless of course you break contact or retreat....I am not omnipotent -TY


I don't doubt that some engage in full contact fighting sessions. Hell I came up during the days of 'Texas Blood and Guts Karate' myself. What I find problematic is the need to make things sound more omnious and profound than they actually are. Maybe somebody just got a little carried away with themselves on the website.I must admit that I am having a bit of a time finding any information on chi tao (I realize I am being lazy and just googeling at this point) or its lineage.

-The matter of the Blood matches is just something part of our heritage. But i will tell you no one is forced to attend or be involved. One can walk away an asst. instructor and have a great Gung Fu foundation WITHOUT having to attend. The part of not being able to find info on Chi Tao, is due to it having at least 4+ expounded names. This is due to its familial nature of teaching from its post communist revolution history. The art I have learned has been known as Wu Ch'uan Chi Tao since the mid 60's here in the US and is the core art of the Green Dragon Society since then as well, but again note their art respected variants of the Core as well. This is purely INTERNAL in nature becuase here Chicago many have known the style for years. Again check this forum and read the info from Manchu the moderator. Clearly there are 'others' that may misrepresent the green dragon as well. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthre...+dragon+society -TY


You say it is based on the three pillars of Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji. What does that mean exactly? Just because something is circular does not make it anything like baguazhang nor something being linear make it like xingyiquan.These systems have specific methods for developing and expressing power.

-Well I agree, just becuase Kenpo has circular movement doesnt make it gung fu. But I am saying that the core aspects of the Art are readily identifiable as parts of these arts...not just what could be...but movements developed as the parent arts do. This bring me to another Chi Tao tradition of Adept learning complete foundations of Hsing I, Ba gua, and tai Chi. In my years, I have been taught the Honan muslim style of Hsing I, Zhang family Chi Gung, Omei spiritual sword, Ba Gua and both Chen/Yang tai chi. Does this make me greater than others? No. Does it make me better prepared than some? Well perhaps...since with this and my TCM I am taught to take a man apart and nearly put him back together. It is said in the Society that the Ba Gua adept follows their opponent while the Chi Tao Adept is followed by the opponent. Semantics? Perhaps. But i have fought in the max prisons and in alleys/clubs...usually with few scratches. Plus, my San Bao is getter stronger as I live...-TY


BTW where does Gao, Feng teach baguazhang and who did he study with? I am quite familiar with Li Zi Ming and several in his lineage.

-Gao Shifu teaches in Beijing and has travelled here to Chicago twice under special permission secured by us. He a proponent of Li Shifu's art and Liang Ba gua as well, favoring Li Ming. I will not go as far to even question his lineage stating here that he is well respected in his homeland. -TY

I greatly appreciate this open dialogue. Remember all training and accomplishment is an illusion as I have been told by my Chi Gung/Omei teacher...Zhang, Pui Yang.

XieXie Ni and Zai Jian

-TY
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152266 - 07/27/05 06:25 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Quote:

On the night of April 23, 1970, he took part in the infamous "dojo war" that ended in the brutal stabbing death of his friend and student, Jim Koncevic, at the Green Dragon's Black Cobr training hall in Chicago. The tragedy left a profound mark on Keehan until his death from bleeding ulcers in 1975.




Actually the wiki article refers to a Green Cobra Hall. Not a Green Dragon's Black Cobra Hall.

???

--KM




This was most DEFINATELY the Black Cobra Temple of the Society. Again, NOT something I am not proud of but the fact that Chicago martial arts was very volatile in the 60's/70's made this stuff happen. There was once 8+ GDS schools open during the &)'s...the Black Cobra was one of them on the North side of Chicago. Also note that the above was posted on the Bullshido site in answer to questions, I didnt hunt it down finanlly there are many that question Chi tao, some Gung Fu styles, and other arts. But the truth is that this art never failed me, i survive better than when all i had was my Kenpo as a teen. Am i saying that any art is better? No...but I am saying that there are superior teachers of arts/methods.
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152267 - 11/04/05 03:21 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
I have attempted to PM Kenpoman. Can anyone with info on this : Li Ming Chi Tao Gungfu' based in Texas...contact me with info?

*XieXie Ni*
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152268 - 11/11/05 10:16 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
Quote:

I have attempted to PM Kenpoman. Can anyone with info on this : Li Ming Chi Tao Gungfu' based in Texas...contact me with info?

*XieXie Ni*




I did not get a PM from you. Are you saying that there is now a Chi Tao school in Texas?

Scott
_________________________
Yeah, if you want to get dry-humped and dookie-licked.

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#152269 - 12/29/05 01:07 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
I was told that there may be a variant school...known as Li Ming Chi Tao. If you can help me find it, i would greatly appreciate it. I want to see determine and discuss their Lineage. Thanks Kenpoman for any assistance that you may be able to provide. If anyone here knows of it, please pm me. Xiexie ni
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152270 - 12/30/05 03:21 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JoelM]
Landus Offline
Member

Registered: 12/28/05
Posts: 373
Loc: UK
Quote:

How can you kill somebody multiple times?




It is possible

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#152271 - 01/04/06 10:16 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
Grayston Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 144
Loc: Essex, UK
Quote:

Originally Posted by chitaochuan
Go to www.greendragonsociety.com it gives a good description of chi tao chuan gung fu




Hmmmmm..... Some very odd claims....

Respectfully,
_________________________
Grayston "Not all Karate is the same."

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#152272 - 01/09/06 02:31 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
Does the Chicago Green Dragon Society have any linkage to the Green Dragon Studios in Akron Ohio, which is another closed door Studio?

Another question: does your school teach iron and poison palm training?

With respect!
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152273 - 01/15/06 12:57 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
JCM Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 17
Hi Tienying,

I have a few questions for you.

1) What motivates you to train in said fashion?
2) Why doesnt anyone from your school come and fight in the UFC or Pride? I mean you guys are already doing blood matches why not do UFC? You guys can prove yourselves plus put yourselves on the map... like the Gracies did. Be great for recruitment plus the money , fame and the ladies are a nice fringe benefit:)
3) Is there any focus on the betterment of one self or your community or is the focus just to be a accomplished fighter?


Edited by JCM (01/15/06 12:58 PM)

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#152274 - 01/15/06 04:11 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JCM]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
This kind of sounds like a troll trolling a troll.

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#152275 - 01/15/06 06:45 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JCM Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

This kind of sounds like a troll trolling a troll.




Sry to give you that impression but I am not trolling. I am asking valid and logical questions. Least to my mind.

The question pertain to the schools veiw points and mind frame. Also by my logic if I was willing to participate in blood matches (which I am not) I would take it a step further and get fame and fortune. So I wouldnt have to do a 9 to 5 er all week.

Sry about the confusion but clarity always falls on the hand of the poster. Myself in this case. Peace.

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#152276 - 01/16/06 07:52 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JCM]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
No worries. Sorry for being rude, I should have put a because I was half-joking anyway. Sarcasm doesn't translate well in posts either. I'm also leery of a lot of posts that tout one organization as the standard of all MA. I think it's cool when people give props to their schools, instructors or anyone they've had experience with, but when I see UFC I sometimes wonder if there's an agenda. I'm also honestly really burned out on the UFC's reputation as the holy sacrament of MA in the US - and I go to a school where one of their top fighters trains. I find the matches interesting, although I thought it was better back in the day, but it is essentially a meat trade and a mass-marketed commercial product. There are some incredible fighters (St. Pierre!!!), but I think alot of the fighters that go the distance are just pugilists that do well only in that particular environment. Not to dis anyone or the fans or the organization itself of course, I just think it's presence is a little over-saturating these days.
Yes, it was a good question, and I apologize for being a rude d!ck about it.

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#152277 - 02/05/06 11:58 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
You are correct about Count Dante and the crazy martial art's community in Chicago during the late 60s and 70s, because I talked to some Chicago Gaylords (a large street during that time period), and when gangs were busting out for turf on the streets, some martial art schools (Like Count Dantes, and a few others) were attacking each other's schools to prove who was the toughest in Chicago.

I know that this breaks all rules in the martial arts, but it was going on in Chicago during that time period, as it was common knowledge that Count Dante's students were willing to challenge other schools.
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152278 - 02/07/06 07:22 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Savate]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
You know, I'm currently trying to gather as much information on this subject as I can. I'm thinking about doing a documentary project on it and there's only so much info on the web. if anyone reading this knows anything about it or could point me in the direction of who does (esp. if they were there) please PM me.
Dave.

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#152279 - 02/12/06 03:30 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
What information - Count Dante? I have information from retired gang members who state what you said about Count Dante was true, and added that come of the martial art schools in Chicago were challenging each other's schools like gang verses gang.
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152280 - 02/13/06 04:21 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Savate]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Yeah, that's pretty much what i was getting at. It's interesting to me to explore all the dark and negative channels martial arts have followed as well as the positive (which are the majority IMO). Count Dante was incredibly anomolous in MA philosophy and I feel compelled to know more.
Thanks.

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#152281 - 02/14/06 01:54 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
There are so many stories involving Chicago and the martial arts. There was a gang that was robbing people on the EL, so Chicago Police put an uncover Officer on the EL to catch the gang, only have him get beaten up by a gang of trained martial artists who were doing the robbing.

It got so bad in Chicago, that a gang member that I know (who was also a practicing martial artist) had to lie to his instructor about being in a gang. Some martial art instructors even had Chicago Police do background checks before they accepted some new students.

There was a martial arts instructor who taught Tae Kwon Do, and used his classes as place to recruit new talent for his gang.

The Green Dragon story that was known among the gang members was that Green Dragon was a "Closed Door" school that had a hardcore reputation, and the count Dante decided to challenge the school. So like the article said, they posed as police to gain entry to the school. What happened is sketchy, but I heard the version of the story that one of Count Dante's blackbelts was killed by a Green Dragon student without a weapon, in a pure barehanded fight.

It was common knowledge back in the 1970s that when you opened up a school in Chicago that you could be challenged, and closed door matches were held before full contact was even a sport. Chicago is a beautiful city, but the tough areas of the city are extremely tough, and you never knew how much knowledge the guy you were fighting had to offer.
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152282 - 02/14/06 09:05 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Savate]
Fisherman Offline
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Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
This thread has me interested in finding more information on Count Dante. I did a quick search and this is some of the information that I came up with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Dante

In this information about Count Dante I see no mention of a Green Dragon Society. Is this conflicting info? I do see mention of a Green Cobra Hall. Was the Count's Black Dragon Society at war with the Green Dragon Society? Was the Green Dragon Society around at the same time as the Count's society?
Pretty interesting stuff. It seems reminicent of some of the plots and story lines in kung fu movies!
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#152283 - 02/14/06 09:23 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#152284 - 02/14/06 03:28 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
It was the black dragons that were the count's crew. I think that is mentioned earlier on in this thread, as is the "controversial" green dragon school in chicago. Both the black and green have identical names to organizations, past and present, in Asia, but have nothing to do with them. And it was Count Dante's foremost student who died in the dojo battle. The black dragon fighting society's website is incredibly pompous. It claims the count truly was the "deadliest man alive" and their forum is pretty much dedicated to slandering Ashida Kim - who apparently sometimes posts on it to defend himself. Kim, of course has claimed in the past that he is the leader of the black dragons, but we all know what kim is about -
Anyway, thanks for the help, all. PM me if you come up with any more good stuff!

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#152285 - 02/14/06 04:32 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: MattJ]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
-Hit coins 3 times before they hit the ground-
L M A O

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#152286 - 02/14/06 04:39 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Leapordsknowbest]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
It's a simple thing to do if you hit the coin from the bottom!!
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#152287 - 02/14/06 11:15 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
Martial arts had a big influence on gangs as I have an article from the Chicago Tribune (1979) describing a rumble:
A 19-year-old reputed street gang member was charged early Sunday with a sword-cane murder of a rival gang member after a fight between the two gangs in a Rogers Park playground Friday night.
xxxxxxxxx was charged with murder of %%%%%%%%%%%%%%.

Police recovered a brown wooden cane containing a concealed 30-inch blade believed to be the murder weapon, said Belmont Area Homocide Sgt. *******.

CCCC, A REPUTED member of the White Howard Street Greasers gang, allegedly chased SSSSS, a member of the racially mixed Howard Street Latin Kings, from the a playground at 7631 N. Ashland Ave., where the two gangs were fighting.

In the ensuing tussle, the sword-cane was plunges through SSSSS's left side.

He said SSSSS's managed to get up and run home, but collapsed on the first-floor stairwell. He was dead on arrival at St. Francis Hospital in Evanston.


Not necessarily a martial artist, but a martial arts style weapon was used. It seemed like in the 1970s that gangs started to replace brass knuckles and other old school weapons with martial art movie weapons. I am not blaming Count Dante or any martial art's schools, but there was an influence as gang members wanted to be Bruce Lee, Billy Jack, etc..
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152288 - 02/15/06 07:41 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Savate]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
Could it also be that they liked the Chinese style weapons? I have seen some interesting weapons come out of China that can easily be hidden. The cane as mentioned above. I have also seen belt swords made from spring steel.
Weren't the police cracking down hard on any gang members caught carrying any weapons like brass knuckles etc.? If so, gangsters would need to find weapons that weren't obvious enough to be called such. Either that or learn how to use themselves as a weapon.
_________________________
Chris Haynes

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#152289 - 02/15/06 05:49 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
You may be correct on that observation about the police and weapons. I do know the gang that I have contact with had some 60 plus sections - or sets - and you could find a lot of members from the 1970s who took the nickname of "Kato", etc...

When I get some actual articles I will post some of the information. There was an article about a Noble Knight (blackbelt) who killed a rival gang member with a knife hand to the throat outside a bar. The Noble Knight received probation of weekend public service for his offense.

You could study the gangs of Chicago for your masters degree, there is so many angles that would could go with it.
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152290 - 02/16/06 02:08 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
He is what a retired greaser had to say about why he started in the martial arts:

"The hype around Count Dante was one of the reasons I got involved in M.A., it was a big deal back then-not too many people had heard of anything about it. If you REALLY want to check out a badass old school martial artist, tho', do some reading about Mos Ayama!"
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152291 - 03/23/06 11:25 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Savate]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
I found the Count Dante advertisement, so you to can teach yourself the Dante Dance, and be the baddest fighter alive:

http://www.toyadz.com/toyadz/karate/countdante.html
_________________________
Joe B.

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#152292 - 03/25/06 11:09 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: ShikataGaNai]
Savate Offline
Member

Registered: 10/23/04
Posts: 48
Loc: New Jersey
Information coming from the greaser pit stop in chicago:

"So, "Count Dante" an some of his boys raided a school in Waukegan, they went at it right out on Rt. 120, inna middle of the street...guys wit nunchuks, staffs, sticks, the works, then some fool starts wavin a sword-end of fight! I'm thinkin this was maybe '68 or '69. IT was a lot a this type of junk goin on back then, specially round C-Town."

Also it looks like the mob had a hit out on count Dante:

"there was a mob hit out for count dante.. read about it in the book When Corruption Was King"

So I hope that helps you out a bit with your research on the darkside of Martial Arts in chicago...


Edited by Savate (03/25/06 11:11 PM)
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Joe B.

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#152293 - 03/29/06 03:22 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JCM]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Hi Tienying,

I have a few questions for you.

1) What motivates you to train in said fashion?
2) Why doesnt anyone from your school come and fight in the UFC or Pride? I mean you guys are already doing blood matches why not do UFC? You guys can prove yourselves plus put yourselves on the map... like the Gracies did. Be great for recruitment plus the money , fame and the ladies are a nice fringe benefit:)
3) Is there any focus on the betterment of one self or your community or is the focus just to be a accomplished fighter?




Ni hao ma Brother.

I am sorry i haven't been here in awhile.

To answer question number one: Well it has always been this way and while that isnt a good reason in itself, I can say that after i had fought this way to earn my 1st instructor title, I began to work in a max prison and trust me, having to do battle full contact came in handy i can say there is a certain level of respect you learn to have for your temple brothers & sisters and what can happen in such an uncertain environment such as our matches they may allow you not to be shocked when it happens on the streets.

Question 2:Well this one is simple. As a Taoist minded master, I have little use for fame for my ability (not that I am anymore exceptional than a beginner). I realized long ago that, while i can show multitudes of students the door, when i pass this world my particular method of combat will be done with...sure I will be survived by my students but even my son wont share the same experiences that i did to develop the skills I value. he will that the formula and develop his own method and pass that on. With that said, i require no fame. Besides with the exception of the some particpants, I think that the UFC did nearly irreparable harm to the vision of martial arts here in the US. There are fighting masters and teaching masters...or both. Those that are both...dont bother with such things becuase they became fighters by accident or thru need of survival.

Question 3: My path is simple. Now that I have been at this for long, I realize that I have only learned to hold a Horse stance and make a great cup of tea for my friends. Ohh and to dance

Zai Jian.
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The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152294 - 05/13/07 12:05 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
hochigen3 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 4
I was a ho chi gen at the green dragon. I started when I WAS 12. All I can say was I am glad I was not there when Jim koncevic was killed, I had acedemic issues and my mother told me to hold off until my grades went up. I was at the Fullerton school when Riverview roller rink burnt to the ground. I was a third instructor for one of the baddest schools there was. We finally lost are license rights when aree school was busted for weapons violations @ our Sheriden school.

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#152295 - 05/13/07 12:19 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
hochigen3 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 4
No you are dead wrong! It was the cobra hall of the Green Dragon Society which was later moved to Montrose and Cicero Which I was second instrucor to ,and one of 4 Black cobras. Allmost ten years of my life. Loved every second except learning through pain!

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#152296 - 05/13/07 12:39 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
hochigen3 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 4
How do you grade! How deep you fingers went into there eyes!How many balls in your hand! This is a street fighting art.

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#152297 - 05/13/07 01:00 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Kempoman]
hochigen3 Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/12/07
Posts: 4
How about fighting with a master who breaks up the fight with a bo if it gets out of hand.You would have to be there!
Trust me you wouldn't.

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#152298 - 05/14/07 07:16 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: hochigen3]
Fisherman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/16/03
Posts: 1656
Loc: Colorado, USA
How about quoting what you are referring to so it makes a bit more sense?
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Chris Haynes

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#152299 - 05/16/07 04:42 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Fisherman]
JimmySmith Offline
Member

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 73
Loc: Australia
Wow this has gotten out of hand... a lot of unqualified MA style bashing (no supporting evidence)... Firstly from the site itself "...he receives the first rank. He is trusted as a loyal, hardworking student, though he may be the equivalent of a Black Belt in Karate!!!!!!!" Apparantly you can be awesome after 1-3 years of study (while I tend to actually agree at times, 1-3 years is nothing compared to 10+ years under good instruction, I don't care what MA you study). Exactly which green dragon did quantitative studies and bothered to fight a test group of great enough size to statistically say after 1-3 years you could be as good as a Black belt?... weird. And it gets worse, Kempoman... "lthough I think I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I understand the term 'cover' art. Does it mean a crude or rudimentary style like TKD?" I'm pretty sure you've just insulted about a million practitioners of TKD. TKD is based strongly on physics, while I don't agree with a lot of what they do, preferring to focus strongly on upper body rather than legs, TKD is far from "Crude" and has paid an aweful lot of attention to body mechanics. How about everyone has a try at not generalising for two seconds? Cheers


Edited by JimmySmith (05/16/07 04:44 AM)

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#152300 - 05/16/07 10:11 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: JimmySmith]
pepto_bismol Offline
infinite kudos

Registered: 03/04/06
Posts: 480
Quote:

Wow this has gotten out of hand... a lot of unqualified MA style bashing (no supporting evidence)... Firstly from the site itself "...he receives the first rank. He is trusted as a loyal, hardworking student, though he may be the equivalent of a Black Belt in Karate!!!!!!!" Apparantly you can be awesome after 1-3 years of study (while I tend to actually agree at times, 1-3 years is nothing compared to 10+ years under good instruction, I don't care what MA you study). Exactly which green dragon did quantitative studies and bothered to fight a test group of great enough size to statistically say after 1-3 years you could be as good as a Black belt?... weird. And it gets worse, Kempoman... "lthough I think I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I understand the term 'cover' art. Does it mean a crude or rudimentary style like TKD?" I'm pretty sure you've just insulted about a million practitioners of TKD. TKD is based strongly on physics, while I don't agree with a lot of what they do, preferring to focus strongly on upper body rather than legs, TKD is far from "Crude" and has paid an aweful lot of attention to body mechanics. How about everyone has a try at not generalising for two seconds? Cheers




wow, I actually have some tapes from a green dragon school, my uncle has all sorts of ma tapes... I used the tapes for power development and still use some of the movements today. I actually enjoyed the exercises, but they were strikingly similar to hung gar, if anybody is interested I can try to convert the tapes to dvd, then put them on youtube for you to analyze.

and I think the cover arts would be like learning pak mei then moving on to the SECRET TIGER CLAW style... or something like that.

it's just that TKD is so main stream... that I can see how it could be considered a rudimentary style.
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YAY pepto bismol! No... not... kryptonite

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#152301 - 05/24/07 03:43 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: pepto_bismol]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Quote:

Wow this has gotten out of hand... a lot of unqualified MA style bashing (no supporting evidence)... Firstly from the site itself "...he receives the first rank. He is trusted as a loyal, hardworking student, though he may be the equivalent of a Black Belt in Karate!!!!!!!" Apparantly you can be awesome after 1-3 years of study (while I tend to actually agree at times, 1-3 years is nothing compared to 10+ years under good instruction, I don't care what MA you study). Exactly which green dragon did quantitative studies and bothered to fight a test group of great enough size to statistically say after 1-3 years you could be as good as a Black belt?... weird. And it gets worse, Kempoman... "lthough I think I understand what you are saying, I am not sure I understand the term 'cover' art. Does it mean a crude or rudimentary style like TKD?" I'm pretty sure you've just insulted about a million practitioners of TKD. TKD is based strongly on physics, while I don't agree with a lot of what they do, preferring to focus strongly on upper body rather than legs, TKD is far from "Crude" and has paid an aweful lot of attention to body mechanics. How about everyone has a try at not generalising for two seconds? Cheers




wow, I actually have some tapes from a green dragon school, my uncle has all sorts of ma tapes... I used the tapes for power development and still use some of the movements today. I actually enjoyed the exercises, but they were strikingly similar to hung gar, if anybody is interested I can try to convert the tapes to dvd, then put them on youtube for you to analyze.

and I think the cover arts would be like learning pak mei then moving on to the SECRET TIGER CLAW style... or something like that.

it's just that TKD is so main stream... that I can see how it could be considered a rudimentary style.




Ni hao all! I hope that all of you are doing well and are following your path to the best of your ability.

Now, I think that the tapes you are referring to from your Uncle are from the Green Dragon Studios in Ohio. The Green Dragon Society of Chicago was not affiliated with them. As an aside, please remember this...there are no truly superior arts...just superior practioners. Yes...some arts contain deeper lessons and training...but that really doesn't matter. I have been blessed to bask in the wisdom of many great teachers of the WAY...including Tae Kwon Do Masters. Never get in the act of dishonoring yourself or your art...by saying any art is lesser.

Ho Chi Jen...well met. You can find my school site at www.chitaogungfu.org. I will only say this: My school and path is built upon a promise to a great lady and teacher, that left us. We teach from the path of truth and without smoke and mirrors. The path is hard...but I can honestly say that it is true and rewarding. ANY past honorably 'dispensed 'proponents of Chi Tao Gung Fu are most welcome to contact and visit us there. WE JUST ASK THAT EGOS AND POSTERING BE LEFT AT THE DOOR. Walk in Peace...and remember that if we fail to selfless share and impart the traditions of the arts, it can be said that we wasted every moment of our training..just my few coins. Take care.


Edited by Tienying (05/24/07 04:03 PM)

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#152302 - 05/24/07 04:21 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2573
Just a brief point: The link at the very start of this thread for the Green Dragon Society no longer works.
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"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#152303 - 05/25/07 11:43 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Prizewriter]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Just a brief point: The link at the very start of this thread for the Green Dragon Society no longer works.




That is the site of another propent of Chi Tao. You are right..it isnt working..:)
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152304 - 05/25/07 10:31 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
Coinicidence, isn't it?

I checked that site and I see no mention of anything to do with "Blood" matches, any masters dying, or any kind of lineage history other than it is a composite of what looks like Wu/Yang Style Taijiquan and Taiji QiGong mixed with an external Shaolin/Wushu art. I am not trying to critize, I am just saying.

What is the history of this "New" Chi Tao Gung-Fu art, what is the lineage, and is that Chicago dojo still around? I may very well visit someday, and would like to know if you'll allow sit-ins from people who have not paid for any classes yet.

I will admit the lack of important information is upsetting, so I am a bit skeptical. However, if you can answer my few questions I would greatly appreciate it.

Further, I imagine a few other members on this board may be asking the same questions in their minds as well.


Edited by Demonologist437 (05/25/07 10:54 PM)
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#152305 - 07/21/07 12:23 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Demonologist437]
Da_Pangzi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 2
Great Question. What is, is, can not, not be.



Edited by Da_Pangzi (07/21/07 12:26 AM)

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#152306 - 07/21/07 12:31 AM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Da_Pangzi]
Da_Pangzi Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/18/07
Posts: 2
Great Question. What is, is, can not, not be.





Beneath heaven nothing is more soft
and yielding than water.
Yet for attacking the solid and strong,
Nothing can take its place.
Therefore the soft can overcome the hard,
The weak can overwhelm the strong,
Under heaven everyone knows this,
Yet no one puts it into practice.

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#152307 - 08/06/07 03:02 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Demonologist437]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Coinicidence, isn't it?

I checked that site and I see no mention of anything to do with "Blood" matches, any masters dying, or any kind of lineage history other than it is a composite of what looks like Wu/Yang Style Taijiquan and Taiji QiGong mixed with an external Shaolin/Wushu art. I am not trying to critize, I am just saying.

What is the history of this "New" Chi Tao Gung-Fu art, what is the lineage, and is that Chicago dojo still around? I may very well visit someday, and would like to know if you'll allow sit-ins from people who have not paid for any classes yet.

I will admit the lack of important information is upsetting, so I am a bit skeptical. However, if you can answer my few questions I would greatly appreciate it.

Further, I imagine a few other members on this board may be asking the same questions in their minds as well.




I apologize for the short response but we will be [placing a forum up on the www.chitaogungfu.org site soon. When I get home from the office, i will post a response to this. Take care.
_________________________
The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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#152308 - 08/13/07 03:50 PM Re: The Green Dragon Society Website [Re: Tienying]
Tienying Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/16/05
Posts: 17
Quote:

Coincidence, isn't it?

I checked that site and I see no mention of anything to do with "Blood" matches, any masters dying, or any kind of lineage history other than it is a composite of what looks like Wu/Yang Style Taijiquan and Taiji Qigong mixed with an external Shaolin/Wushu art. I am not trying to criticize, I am just saying.

What is the history of this "New" Chi Tao Gung-Fu art, what is the lineage, and is that Chicago dojo still around? I may very well visit someday, and would like to know if you'll allow sit-ins from people who have not paid for any classes yet.

I will admit the lack of important information is upsetting, so I am a bit skeptical. However, if you can answer my few questions I would greatly appreciate it.

Further, I imagine a few other members on this board may be asking the same questions in their minds as well.




Ni hao Demonologist. The reason that you see no mention of those things you mentioned is first...that it would be very inappropriate and second...this is my own website, which is by design very general, partly due to very little need for enticement thru fame or claims. Potential students should know what they seek and we are more than willing to help them find what they are looking for, if the Chi Tao Gung Fu training isn’t a good fit. The blood matches and history of the art is still there...it didn't disappear. This model is proving to be very successful for my goal of teaching a new generation this art. In the excellent book, Tao De Gung (martial arts & its virtues) by Chu, he speaks of the fact that truly devoted teachers and proponents of arts are usually not famous or well known, mostly due to the fact that they have little need for salesmanship or fanfare. If they do become famous, it is usually due to the work and reputation of those that they produce or help become healthier through training. Am I saying that, martial arts teachers shouldn’t be well known or be compensated? Of course not, they have a right to make a living with their passion. I am just illustrating that all over the world there are arts that silently develop new generations of students in relative obscurity.

Please read my various commentaries in this thread above to clarify your inquiries above. It is definitely NOT Wushu (no offense at all) mixed with Tai Chi Ch'uan. As it has been said before, even in Chicago, Chi Tao Ch’uan has a history dating back to the late 50’s. This art was known and had over 10 schools in the day of my father, here in Chicago…circa late 60’s – 70’s. I will say this...Chi Tao Gungfu is definitely not 'New' and it isn’t a sport...but a serious martial tradition requiring dedication and perseverance, as well as respect for one's own teachers and self. Is it evolving? …of course and any art that claims not to is a dead martial art or science. I am currently working on the lineage chart for accuracy, as well the getting clips ready for the site and possibly other venues. And please note that I am definitely not the sole proponent of this art, nor am I by far its highest ranking teacher. I am just working to place it where it should be in today’s information age.

I hold ALL practitioners of this honorable system (beginners and adepts) close to my heart and above even myself. This is our way. I respect and teach my students to respect all proponents of the martial sciences...equally. As I have said before that any system that improves another and makes them a better human being…is to be honored. Our training halls and groups are semi ‘closed–door’. This means that traditionally we do not allow anyone to just wander into a students class (which they are paying for mind you) and disrupt it for the sake of spectating or proving we exist. Does this mean that we don’t let other internal or martial masters and students visit upon invite or association? Of course not.

Chi Tao Gungfu is the foundation of my life and my 'Way'. Feel free to contact me for dialogue on the website...via email to info@chitaogungfu.org. Ohh...and it is a Guan (Mandarin) or Kwoon (Cantonese)...not a dojo...that is paramount to calling a Chinese master or teacher...a 'sensei'. Walk in peace and be safe.
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The eternal tao is many paths to the same goal...here is the door. www.chitaogungfu.org

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