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#150914 - 05/30/05 01:42 PM Be water.....
sean_lee Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 8
....Empty your mind,
Be formless, shapeless, like water.
Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup.
You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle.
You put water into a teapot, it becomes the teapot.
Now water can flow, or it can crash,
Be water my friend .

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#150915 - 05/31/05 01:12 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: sean_lee]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Yes my friend to me thay saying means to adapt to any situation in life.
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Talk is cheap take it to the pit.

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#150916 - 05/31/05 02:06 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: Rumble]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
OK, here's an interesting observation for you JKD folks to consider. Was Bruce just referring to water in it's liquid state? Or any of it's 3 states?

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#150917 - 05/31/05 09:29 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Good question, Eyrie.

I believe in that particular example, he was refering to water in it's liquid state. I know that Ed Parker formulated the SD techniques of American Kenpo with all 3 states of matter in mind.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#150918 - 05/31/05 09:37 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Matt,

Would you care to elaborate more on this?

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#150919 - 05/31/05 09:22 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I would prefer to be kool-aid.Everybody loves you and doesn't mind when you bust through their walls.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#150920 - 05/31/05 09:55 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: SANCHIN31]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
C'mon Brian, you'd rather be whisky wouldn't you? Give them a nice warm feeling as you go down...

But it was a serious question....now how bout a serious response?

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#150921 - 05/31/05 10:10 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Sorry,I just get tired of the Bruce Lee quotes that people try to examine to death.It's probably just another quote that he got from a much older,deader,and wiser guy.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#150922 - 05/31/05 10:15 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: SANCHIN31]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
So? All knowledge is not new....just different spins on old ideas. Treat it like it did come from someone older and wiser...

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#150923 - 05/31/05 10:20 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
SANCHIN31 Offline
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Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
What is this? The zen forum? I could find a verse in proverbs that says something similar with much more meaning.
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#150924 - 05/31/05 10:21 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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As defined in American Kenpo:

STATES OF MOTION: Solid, Liquid, and Gaseous.

Movements that are rigid and powerful can be compared to ice. They are solid in their execution. If we use a defensive example, think of a hard block. Force meeting force.

Those moves that flow like script writing can be compared to liquid, which not only flows, but seeks its own level. In this example, think of parries. Flowing with and then re-directing the opponent's force.

Moves that are simultaneously executed in several directions can be compared to the gaseous state of water (steam.) Water in its gaseous state seeks its volume. Likewise, moves that simultaneously seek their range in several directions can be considered to be the gaseous state of motion. "Rolling" (as in boxing) with an incoming strike would be an example of the gaseous state of motion.

I am somewhat rusty with my AK terminology, so these examples are the best I could do off the top of my head. Perhaps Whitedragon48 could elaborate (or correct!) further.

I believe Bruce's quote applies to the modern MA as well....he is saying that you need to be adaptable. If the opponent uses linear technique, you use circular. If the opponent is a superior striker, try taking him to the ground. If he is a good kicker, get inside and use your hands, etc.


Edited by MattJ (05/31/05 10:27 PM)
_________________________
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#150925 - 05/31/05 11:15 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thanks Matt, that's the sort of thing I expected. The use of water as an analogy for adaptability and flexibility is obvious to say the least.

I was just curious, as I had the opportunity to train with a couple of jujitsu-ka who have called themselves mizu-ryu (water-style) jujitsu. It was interesting to see how they embodied their art by some of the techniques they showed.

One was an escape from juji-gatame (crosshold) that had the feeling of water flowing in a pipe, and one was a interesting setup to a reverse juji-gatame that looked like a wave crashing on the rocks.

This brings up some interesting teaching methodologies. Do you use a elemental (not just water!) approach in your techniques, and/or principles?

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#150926 - 06/01/05 09:43 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
RazorFoot Offline
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Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
Eyrie, I know the question was directed to MattJ, so forgive my intrusion but the question actually made me realize something that I do in my training that I didnt realize till now.

A while back, I had read some information that had Stephen Hayes (Ninjutsu) demonstrating different postures or ready stances that reflected different elements and how to apply techniques from those stances or postures.

They reflected Fire (aggressive stance and aggressive movements that overwhelm), Earth (strong, solid, deeper stance allowing the enemy to come to you to be trapped, captured, and dispatched), Wind (an open, elusive, free moving state using footwork and evasiveness), and water (which enveloped the attacker, moving the target of their strikes with the attack and then smothering them with the retalitory strikes or traps).

True Ninjutsu practioners, forgive my loose translation / interpretation of the reading. It has been some time since I have familiarized myself with the info but I have adapted this thought process to the way I fight and to my SD training, adapting different mindsets based on the attackers style.
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#150927 - 06/01/05 01:18 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
MattJ Offline
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Eyrie -

I must confess that I am much too dense to be able to think of well....anything in combat situations. I am very much a reactive, instinctive fighter. The opponent's action/reactions will dictate much of my own.

I can think in very broad terms of offense and defense, so my application could be considered elemental in the ways the RazorFoot described above.

I do think it is a good idea to be familiar with all the "elements" as RazorFoot described, because in any given situation, you may need to use one (attacking, standing your ground, evading, etc,) and shift to another as needed.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#150928 - 06/01/05 03:23 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: MattJ]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
What I originally shared with Bruce was this;

Be like gas my friend, like gas.

He felt people in the west would have a hard time with the way it translated. I don't believe his paraphrase of our conversation has the same impact.

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#150929 - 06/01/05 04:21 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Oldman,

So Plasma would be two guys in a hallway with a case of beer, three bean burritos and a Bic lighter.......?

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#150930 - 06/01/05 04:29 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: butterfly]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Maybe Bruce was right?

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#150931 - 06/01/05 04:31 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: oldman]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I think you might be righ....

-B

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#150932 - 06/01/05 09:11 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: MattJ]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Razorfoot, thanks for sharing. It wasn't specifically directed at MattJ, so everyone, please, feel free to jump in

I asked because I was curious. Musashi refers to elemental principles in the Go Rin no Sho (Book of 5 Rings).

MattJ, I think the idea is to train in the "spirit" of these elements, so that when you are under pressure in combat, you don't have to "think", but embody the "spirit" of the elements.

As the man once said, "Don't think! Feeeeeeeeeeeeel"...

PS: That was a "gas", oldman....

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#150933 - 09/11/06 05:02 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: eyrie]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Old thread I know, but I like digging up old threads to find out new interesting things.

Quote:

OK, here's an interesting observation for you JKD folks to consider. Was Bruce just referring to water in it's liquid state? Or any of it's 3 states?




I really like this question, especially with how it applies to ice. When water freezes it expands, if you take this in a grappling context, if you're going to be rigid you want to fill as much space as possible to restrict their movement. That's something you can figure out without the water/ice analogy, but questions like this sometimes get you thinking about aspects of your game you wouldn't normally think about.

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#150934 - 09/11/06 07:23 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: migo]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
I love over-determination , it reminds me of han confucianism. You can over-intellectualise things you know.


Edited by Supremor (09/11/06 07:37 AM)

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#150935 - 09/11/06 07:40 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: Supremor]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I love over-determination, it reminds me of han confucianism. You can over-intellectualise things you know.





This is one of the greatest points ever made on this forum.


People will take a small concept and just place it under a microscope analyzing something until they are paralyzed.

People love a mystery I guess. The problem that I see is that folks are generally looking for hidden, complicated answers to things when they are often simple and in plain view. "Hidden in plain sight", as they say.

This seems to be ESPECIALLY true with the martial arts crowd!



-John

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#150936 - 09/11/06 03:43 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: Supremor]
migo Offline
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Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Drawing a comparison is hardly over-intelectualising.

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#150937 - 09/11/06 03:58 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: migo]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
I don't think that Supremor was directing that at you specifically, Migo. He was probably referring to people that over-analyze things in general. Nothing wrong with drawing comparisons.

I like your BJJ/ice analogy. I am still a n00b at BJJ, but the comparison strikes me as sound.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#150938 - 09/12/06 07:21 AM Re: Be water..... [Re: MattJ]
migo Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/03/06
Posts: 573
Loc: Burnaby, BC, Canada
Ah ok, I get confused sometimes with the replying to tag. Might be nice if there's an option to have a non-directed reply.

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#150939 - 09/12/06 03:35 PM Re: Be water..... [Re: migo]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
oh yes, that was not particularly directed at you migo, just stating my general opinion on the studying on minute ( and I feel insignificant) details.

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