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#150826 - 06/01/05 12:17 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: SeiserL]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Lynn,

For the benefit of those that didn't (like myself, being so far removed down the arse end of the earth), would it be possible to impose on some of your time to share your thoughts and perspectives from the seminar, regarding this subject?

Thanks in advance,


#150827 - 06/01/05 02:01 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
BulldogTKD Offline

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Well said butterfly. I teach a lot of self-defense against a jab, but the intent of this practice is to get my students use to anticipating, timing, understanding the movement and judging distance. Catching a jab is a hard thing, but blocking, countering or defeating one is not that difficult if you understand the movement of you attacker.

#150828 - 06/01/05 04:12 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: BulldogTKD]
Subedei Offline

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I would simply deflect, evade and counterattack against a jab.

If you're intent on not hurting them then I'd suggest not attempting to grab it head on. Evade in a circular pattern, rotating your back foot around the front. It does not matter how fast the attack is. When it comes you will not be there. Attempt to grab the punch on the same line that it approaches you. Catching something as it's traveling away from you is vastly easier than catching it as it travels towards you. At this point, however, I'm not sure why you'd attempt to grab their hand when there are much better ways to throw, lock, and pin them.

#150829 - 06/02/05 10:34 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
SeiserL Offline

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Marietta, GA

would it be possible to impose on some of your time to share your thoughts and perspectives from the seminar, regarding this subject?Thanks in advance, Ignatius

Todd James had us focus on maia (distance) and irimi (entering) to the inside and outside, alwasy taking kuzushi (balance). One exercise we were proactive, taking ikkyu before a punch was thrown. Very well done seminar and thought provoking about why we don't train more against common strikes. Was one of my highlights of the Expo. A good man too.
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. KWATZ!

#150830 - 06/02/05 09:17 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: SeiserL]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you for the insight Lynn. Good stuff! It's reassuring to note that one should not discard the basic principles on which the art is based.

As to why we don't train more against common strikes? I think it's because aikido is a "principle-based hierarchy" as opposed to a "technical hierarchy".

Therefore the technical forms that are practised in [most] aikido, are merely vehicles for movement exploration, as opposed to learning a bunch of "canned" responses to standard attacks.

PS: On Aikiweb, you mentioned that you were in the process of putting together some notes and thoughts on your experience of Aiki Expo 05. Grateful if you could cross post it here at some stage. Thanks in advance.

#150831 - 06/03/05 04:00 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Not much Aikido training but just the good old parry works well, HANDS UP! parry spining back fist is nice too. The jab is super quick and I can't picture many Aikido move to counter the jab. Although, I can picture the Aikido guys moving from side to side or circling around the uke while he is trying to jab. If there are some nice Aikido counters to the jab i hope some one will post them.
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

#150832 - 06/05/05 06:12 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999

I must say that your comments were both temperate and reasonable. Based on my experience I believe I would concur with your assessment.

As a mere mortal, I find "catching" fast straight punches such as a jab, well, rather difficult. I have trained it for years and only on the occassional (translates to rare ) instances can I actually do it against someone while sparring. In those instances I believe it was because the punch was slow, telegraphed or just the wrong thing for my opponent to do at the time. I would not look to employ it as a technique outside of the dojo unless any of these things happen to occur.

So..., like Schanne, I rely primarily on parrying/deflecting or evasion with some one who is reasonably good with their hands. That's most people .

The essense of "aiki" (IMHO) is to capitalize on an opponents extended energy. It looks pretty in the movies and in the dojo but I'll take mine ugly , which is how it usually works out.

Nice topic.

#150833 - 06/05/05 08:46 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Most aikido waza is practised at a fraction of "normal" speed. (Whatever "normal" means...)

Think of it as "slow motion replay", if you like. In any case, what "looks" like a "grab", usually isn't. "Good aikido" (again, whatever that means), aims to come off the line, parry/deflect, and redirect. This grossly translates to irimi-tenkan - enter and pivot. Not "twirl" the person around - that's, well, kinda like *dancing*....

So no matter how fast the jab is coming at you, if you can read the body language (like butterfly previously mentioned), you should already be "inside the movement" and controlling the *whole body*, not just the hand/arm.

If you put this in context of a sword movement (i.e. you are armed with the sword), it becomes even clearer.

FWIW, my insignificant $0.025


#150834 - 06/06/05 09:26 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999

Perhaps the use of the words "catching" or "grabbing" do not accuartely reflect the nature of the movement. We all seem to fall victim the shortcomings of the written word. I guess more accurately it is simply a point where you take control of the attacker and continue on with the technique to achieve a desired result which is all part of a fluid movement. Maybe ?

It is after all, a matter of percieving a persons intnetions and reacting - moving your body or parts thereof, to react to whats coming at you. Understanding the broad concept of "ma" (again my writing skills fall short here) is the cornerstone of it.

The angle, speed, distance and height dictate what you will do. Again, I may be reading something in to this that I should not but my conception of a "jab" is a fast, head level shot - western boxing style. I find these extremely difficult to apply anything other than a parry/deflection and slip against.

A similar punch aimed at the torso is altogether different which lends itself to other opportunties. That was essentially the basis for my previous comments. Even the most skilled practitioners would find applying these techniques quite difficult to apply at anyhting beyond the slow-motion "replay" that is used to train the tehcnique in the dojo. As I mentioned before I do not discount anyone's ability to actually do it, I just find it quite difficult. That may be more of a comment on my own skill and where I'm at more than anyhting else.

At any rate, the topic and discussion is good one!

#150835 - 06/06/05 10:12 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Did you watch the Tszyu/Hatton fight?
I only saw snippets of it, but there were several occasions where Tszyu does a duck and weave under the jab and comes in close. Occasionally he would miss the entry in and cop the cross. So no matter how much you practice, at whatever speed, it can still happen. Granted, Tszyu was probably feeling the effects of trying to lose kilos in the week before the fight, but nonetheless....

Having boxed b4, I can say unequivocally that it is virtually impossible to catch/grab a jab. All you can do is exactly what you say...or take the hit (not a good idea).

I agree, understanding the concept of "ma" is definitely one of the cornerstones. A typical jujitsu response would be to maintain ma-ai and attempt to jam/stop the knee of the lead foot - possibly "un-aiki", but effective nonetheless. It's the follow thru technique that's the tricky part, as you now have to come off the line, enter and attempt to apply a technique, perhaps a rear takedown. Timing obviously is of the essence.

As to whether this can be considered an "aiki" response. I don't see why not. Bear in mind, the way I was taught "aiki" is not predicated on applying a set response to a set attack. The technique is dictated by circumstances. Of course this raises the question as to whether such a response can be consistently reliable.

Short answer is "I don't know". All I can rely upon is my training.

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