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#150816 - 05/30/05 05:21 AM defense against jabs
CdkwaN Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 28
Loc: Indiana
For any Aikido practioner: As my knowledge of Aikido is very limited perhaps someone could answer this question for me.
All of the Aikido that I have seen is when someone does a long slow punch at the Aikidost, in which he is able to easily grab the wrist of the puncher and twirl him around before throwing him. How does your skill come into play when the punch is a very fast jab, as that thrown by, lets say someone who is trained in fighting like a boxer?
Just hard for me to imagine catching that punch, or do you just avoid, and use some other tactic?
Thanks for answering!
Cd

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#150817 - 05/30/05 07:13 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Cd,

First, you have to understand that my Aikido experience is limited, however the Aikido I learned may not be similar to your experience. Also, that there are lots of Aikido out there with different types of emphasis...some of which are not for actual utility but more for personal development.

However, aikido is a MA that stems from several jujitsu styles and when done for utility has reality based instruction. Many of these use atemi for unbalancing the opponent. Atemi is just striking (and there are many kinds of atemi to unbalance)...in some schools this is just done perfunctorily, but where I studied for a short time, the instructor had a lot of boxing experience and therefore the aikido techniques would many times rely on a backfist or even an elbow to the face, prior to setting up the throw.

I am primarily a karate guy, but could immediately see the utility of this practice. Opponent throws a jab and you sidestep and throw a backfist...now here's the hard part: You have to determine how your opponent reacts to the strike, so that you can set up your conter and throw.

Aikido takes a long time to understand and use. Generally, these excercises were done slowly. I might add though, that I have never seen a jab used in a real fight. My experience has always beent that it was something more committed.

-B

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#150818 - 05/30/05 09:03 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
CdkwaN Offline
Member

Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 28
Loc: Indiana
Butterfly,

Thank you for your answer to my post about the jab defense in Aikido. You see a new dojo had opened in a town about 25 mi. from me and I stopped in one day recently to check it out. The new owners were very polite, and offered me to stop in for a lesson anytime I wanted to. I did stop in for an aikido class one eve. and did find it fun, different, and still confusing, all 3 wrapped into one. I found myself wanting to block the punch comming toward me, but by the end of class was somewhat getting the concept of the art. I suppose going from a Korean based art, to a Japanese style made me feel like a fish out of water. Anyway, I did get the feeling also, since the instructer was partially Japanese decent, that the concept like you said, takes many many years of discipline to perfect!
respectfully, Cdkwan

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#150819 - 05/30/05 09:30 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
ma-ai

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#150820 - 05/30/05 10:12 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Opponent throws a jab and you sidestep and throw a backfist...now here's the hard part:





Jabs must be alot slower in your world than mine!



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#150821 - 05/30/05 10:33 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
Nagamaki Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Southeast Asia
Quote:

ma-ai




thats a good answer
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#150822 - 05/31/05 12:34 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: Nagamaki]
Strider_Hanzo Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Norwalk, CA 90650
I've recently taken up Ki-Aikido but i'm not familiar with the terminology yet... What exactly is ma-ai??
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#150823 - 05/31/05 01:36 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: Strider_Hanzo]
Nagamaki Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Southeast Asia
Quote:

I've recently taken up Ki-Aikido but i'm not familiar with the terminology yet... What exactly is ma-ai??





it means distance between you and the opponent. Ma-ai is true to kenjustu, naginata and ect. The one who controls this ma-ai can control the situation. in encountering various partners differing in hieght or reach in aiki practice the ma-ai changes,also same with doing aikiken and aikijo, so this distance with the combination of timing is one of the most important factor in delivering aiki waza.
a jab can be pretty useless if cant reach. If the opponent tries to close the distance by delivering a jab, it can be effectively countered by moving in and breaking the center to execute a any particular technique.

i hope it helps
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#150824 - 05/31/05 01:39 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: kusojiji]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kusojiji,
It's a little harder than just sort of stepping away from a jab. (I understand your consideration.) I guess I should preface and say again that I consider myself a karate guy. However, I have been lucky enought to practice with a former amatuer boxer and one of my sempai was on the U.S. Boxing team that went to Calgary in the 1980s. I say this since some people segregate techniques to one style of fighting and generalize (comparmentalize) others.

And I will say this, not all karate and not all Aikido and not all any martial arts are necessarily the same as the ones you might have experience with. By the way, I hope you don't read this as coming with any irritated tone in my writing (typing leaves a lot te be desired when compared to the nuance of spoken words), because I am not intending this. I am basically trying to get across here that I have experience with good jabs.

When others speak of Ma-ai, and I generally go with my eperience with karate, it is less that the jab is thrown and you are defending against a really fast punch, but that you pick up on the intent of the jab by reading body languange and can sort of feel that this type of technique is coming. Think of a boxer slipping the jab, but instead of countering with a hook, you might choose to throw your shoulder into the opponent (this is atemi also) and go on to see if you can capitalize on your opponent's momentum change.

I hope this helps. Aikido, like other MAs, if practiced long enough will hopefully aid you in reading your opponent. This is essentially what I was trying to get across here.

Regards,
-B

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#150825 - 06/01/05 12:13 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
SeiserL Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Marietta, GA
Todd James just did an excellent seminar and demonstration on this exact subject at the Aiki Expo in Los Angeles. Truly a great weekend of instruction, insight, and inspiration. Anyone else attend?
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#150826 - 06/01/05 12:17 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: SeiserL]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Hi Lynn,

For the benefit of those that didn't (like myself, being so far removed down the arse end of the earth), would it be possible to impose on some of your time to share your thoughts and perspectives from the seminar, regarding this subject?

Thanks in advance,

Ignatius

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#150827 - 06/01/05 02:01 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Well said butterfly. I teach a lot of self-defense against a jab, but the intent of this practice is to get my students use to anticipating, timing, understanding the movement and judging distance. Catching a jab is a hard thing, but blocking, countering or defeating one is not that difficult if you understand the movement of you attacker.

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#150828 - 06/01/05 04:12 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: BulldogTKD]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
I would simply deflect, evade and counterattack against a jab.

If you're intent on not hurting them then I'd suggest not attempting to grab it head on. Evade in a circular pattern, rotating your back foot around the front. It does not matter how fast the attack is. When it comes you will not be there. Attempt to grab the punch on the same line that it approaches you. Catching something as it's traveling away from you is vastly easier than catching it as it travels towards you. At this point, however, I'm not sure why you'd attempt to grab their hand when there are much better ways to throw, lock, and pin them.

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#150829 - 06/02/05 10:34 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
SeiserL Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/17/04
Posts: 14
Loc: Marietta, GA
Quote:

would it be possible to impose on some of your time to share your thoughts and perspectives from the seminar, regarding this subject?Thanks in advance, Ignatius




Todd James had us focus on maia (distance) and irimi (entering) to the inside and outside, alwasy taking kuzushi (balance). One exercise we were proactive, taking ikkyu before a punch was thrown. Very well done seminar and thought provoking about why we don't train more against common strikes. Was one of my highlights of the Expo. A good man too.
_________________________
We don't rise to the level of our expectations, but fall to the level of our training. KWATZ!

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#150830 - 06/02/05 09:17 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: SeiserL]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you for the insight Lynn. Good stuff! It's reassuring to note that one should not discard the basic principles on which the art is based.

As to why we don't train more against common strikes? I think it's because aikido is a "principle-based hierarchy" as opposed to a "technical hierarchy".

Therefore the technical forms that are practised in [most] aikido, are merely vehicles for movement exploration, as opposed to learning a bunch of "canned" responses to standard attacks.

PS: On Aikiweb, you mentioned that you were in the process of putting together some notes and thoughts on your experience of Aiki Expo 05. Grateful if you could cross post it here at some stage. Thanks in advance.

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#150831 - 06/03/05 04:00 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Not much Aikido training but just the good old parry works well, HANDS UP! parry spining back fist is nice too. The jab is super quick and I can't picture many Aikido move to counter the jab. Although, I can picture the Aikido guys moving from side to side or circling around the uke while he is trying to jab. If there are some nice Aikido counters to the jab i hope some one will post them.
_________________________
The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#150832 - 06/05/05 06:12 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: butterfly]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Butterfly,

I must say that your comments were both temperate and reasonable. Based on my experience I believe I would concur with your assessment.

As a mere mortal, I find "catching" fast straight punches such as a jab, well, rather difficult. I have trained it for years and only on the occassional (translates to rare ) instances can I actually do it against someone while sparring. In those instances I believe it was because the punch was slow, telegraphed or just the wrong thing for my opponent to do at the time. I would not look to employ it as a technique outside of the dojo unless any of these things happen to occur.

So..., like Schanne, I rely primarily on parrying/deflecting or evasion with some one who is reasonably good with their hands. That's most people .

The essense of "aiki" (IMHO) is to capitalize on an opponents extended energy. It looks pretty in the movies and in the dojo but I'll take mine ugly , which is how it usually works out.

Nice topic.

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#150833 - 06/05/05 08:46 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Most aikido waza is practised at a fraction of "normal" speed. (Whatever "normal" means...)

Think of it as "slow motion replay", if you like. In any case, what "looks" like a "grab", usually isn't. "Good aikido" (again, whatever that means), aims to come off the line, parry/deflect, and redirect. This grossly translates to irimi-tenkan - enter and pivot. Not "twirl" the person around - that's, well, kinda like *dancing*....

So no matter how fast the jab is coming at you, if you can read the body language (like butterfly previously mentioned), you should already be "inside the movement" and controlling the *whole body*, not just the hand/arm.

If you put this in context of a sword movement (i.e. you are armed with the sword), it becomes even clearer.

FWIW, my insignificant $0.025

Ignatius

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#150834 - 06/06/05 09:26 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
eyrie,

Perhaps the use of the words "catching" or "grabbing" do not accuartely reflect the nature of the movement. We all seem to fall victim the shortcomings of the written word. I guess more accurately it is simply a point where you take control of the attacker and continue on with the technique to achieve a desired result which is all part of a fluid movement. Maybe ?

It is after all, a matter of percieving a persons intnetions and reacting - moving your body or parts thereof, to react to whats coming at you. Understanding the broad concept of "ma" (again my writing skills fall short here) is the cornerstone of it.

The angle, speed, distance and height dictate what you will do. Again, I may be reading something in to this that I should not but my conception of a "jab" is a fast, head level shot - western boxing style. I find these extremely difficult to apply anything other than a parry/deflection and slip against.

A similar punch aimed at the torso is altogether different which lends itself to other opportunties. That was essentially the basis for my previous comments. Even the most skilled practitioners would find applying these techniques quite difficult to apply at anyhting beyond the slow-motion "replay" that is used to train the tehcnique in the dojo. As I mentioned before I do not discount anyone's ability to actually do it, I just find it quite difficult. That may be more of a comment on my own skill and where I'm at more than anyhting else.

At any rate, the topic and discussion is good one!

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#150835 - 06/06/05 10:12 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Did you watch the Tszyu/Hatton fight?
I only saw snippets of it, but there were several occasions where Tszyu does a duck and weave under the jab and comes in close. Occasionally he would miss the entry in and cop the cross. So no matter how much you practice, at whatever speed, it can still happen. Granted, Tszyu was probably feeling the effects of trying to lose kilos in the week before the fight, but nonetheless....

Having boxed b4, I can say unequivocally that it is virtually impossible to catch/grab a jab. All you can do is exactly what you say...or take the hit (not a good idea).

I agree, understanding the concept of "ma" is definitely one of the cornerstones. A typical jujitsu response would be to maintain ma-ai and attempt to jam/stop the knee of the lead foot - possibly "un-aiki", but effective nonetheless. It's the follow thru technique that's the tricky part, as you now have to come off the line, enter and attempt to apply a technique, perhaps a rear takedown. Timing obviously is of the essence.

As to whether this can be considered an "aiki" response. I don't see why not. Bear in mind, the way I was taught "aiki" is not predicated on applying a set response to a set attack. The technique is dictated by circumstances. Of course this raises the question as to whether such a response can be consistently reliable.

Short answer is "I don't know". All I can rely upon is my training.

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#150836 - 06/06/05 01:57 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Nice post eyrie,

Unfortunately I have not seen that fight. What you described though is more or less how it seems to work.

On a few other occassions I think I've made pains to describe (as humbly as I can) that, it is "the principle and not the technique" although in not so many words. I usually describe actaully applying a lock of some type, for instance, as "secondary" meaning that I personally don't set out to do it - but if the opporunity happens to be there - say if you've effectively trapped or killed a strike - then, by all means I'll put it on them.

That is a "street wise" philosophy that was a concious part of my hapkido training. Once a pratictioner had firmly grasped the principles, the "pure" technical aspect presented in training a technique was somewhat less important.

I think we're saying about the same thing.


Edited by KiDoHae (06/06/05 03:37 PM)

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#150837 - 06/06/05 09:50 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: KiDoHae]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
It's difficult to have a meaningful discussion if we all agree, but it is nice to know that some of us share similar points of view.

As my aiki teacher always said "forget technique".... which strangely is never a problem for me, coz as soon as he stops demonstrating and we break for practice, I always invariably ask my partner, "what technique are we doing? I forgot...er...just attack me, we'll work it out..."

Whilst technical forms are useful for teaching the basic shape of a movement, it is necessary to lose the visual aesthetics of the form, and look to the *feeling* of the form.

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#150838 - 06/07/05 07:33 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 184
Loc: woking, surrey,uk
Usually in Aikido dojo's the defences that are practiced are aginst UPA or unified power of attack or commited attack-whole body- these attacks are easier to take control of the uke's centre. in our school your attacks has to be sincere-we practice the classical strikes like chudan tsuki, yokomen uchi and shomen uchi- but we also practice jodan tsuki, kizami tsuki (jab) and mae geri defences.

I think that a fast jab is real hard to do something with due to the snapping action, drawing back. I think that movement has a big part to play- as long as you make sure that jab does not connect then that's a good defence no matter how you stop it, getting out the way, token block, pressing block whatever or perhaps put one in yourself-atemi. having said that I have seen Steven Seagal do a nice kote gaeshi from a jab in his video a path beyond thought.

the book of 5 rings says (in so many words) if they attack mountains you attack sea's so I supose this principle applies to jabs.

www.lonepineryu.co.uk

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#150839 - 07/08/05 06:44 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
I'm going to take a stab at the jab. I'm no expert in Aikido so my terminology may be a little weak but here you go.

Most people jab with there left hand so I'll approach it from that angle.

As the jab comes toward the face use the right hand to parry the jab towards your left side. As you do this step in with your left foot as you throw your left arm violently into the right side of the opponents neck. Simultaneosly strike the neck in a brachial stun and perform a reaping type throw (as in Judo) or forcefully drive the subject down (as in Aikido). Before the opponent can recover quickly place him into position for a pin or, if he is very violent you may have to kick him while he's down.

This would take some time to perfect but I have used similar defense in sparring and grappling situations.

Hope this helps.

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#150840 - 07/08/05 08:04 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I don't know how aiki this is but we learnt it in class. As the jab comes in, irimi, drop to your knees and atemi right where it counts. You have to move swiftly particularly if the person executing the jab has decent boxing skills, they're very quick on their feet, so if you miss you're in trouble! I suppose a boxer's lower region is a better target to go for as they only really focus on defending their upper region. On the other hand if the jab is coming from a kick boxer it's probably not the best idea to drop as you'd be in range of a knee strike.

Another possibililty would be to irimi to the dead side of your opponent at the point of the jab and redirect the strike by pushing at the point of the opponents elbow. This may temporarily disturb their balance giving you a chance to take it and execute a technique. Again, you'd have to be swift.
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Chanters

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#150841 - 07/08/05 08:16 AM Re: defense against jabs [Re: Chanters]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
For that reason, and the fact that your opponent might be baiting you into the drop, so that he can respond with a knee to head, is all the more reason I would favour a somewhat deep entrance into the dead side, and controlling the shoulder of the jabbing arm, with the ultimate aim of controlling their center. But that's just me....

From there, whatever "technique" is obvious will happen.

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#150842 - 07/31/05 07:26 PM Re: defense against jabs [Re: CdkwaN]
AttorneyJohn Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 14
Loc: Houston Texas
In a word, "Distance." In a Japanese word set, "mai ai."

The aikido person wants to stay out of the boxer's effective distance if at all possible, and not llow him within reach of the jab. The aikido person isn't going to want to exchange punches with a boxer, EVER, so why would he stay within range of the lead hand? Move away.

It sounds simple, but it isn't. You are most correct about trapping a lead hand flicking jab with a controlling technique, that's for certain. But, if you are out of range, the boxer knows it, and has to close with you to throw the punches, and hopefully, when he or she closes, that is the opportunity that you have to do something. I won't kid you though, there is a lot of problems with standing toe-to-toe witha boxer.

So..... don't stand there. There's no law that says you have to, you know.

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