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#150290 - 05/28/05 01:46 PM Training at your own risk?
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
here's the scenerio:
During partner drills there is a brown belt (in this case, about 4 years of training I believe) in class that gets really annoyed even to the slightest tap of contact. Other students at the same level in training practice a resonable amount of contact - from a realistic distance but not pulling the punches, yet not full power...the equivalent to light to medium contact to the body and none to light contact to the head. I think that is the standard that is considered reasonable. (I know it varies per level of training...lets just talk about the level I've described for simplicity)

If a fellow student is matched up with the person who complains of any contact, what should that student do? comply to the timidness of the student by not making contact or do the drill as taught and realistic?

keep in mind, the timid student appears to just have a fear of getting hit, I don't think the reasons have a medical justification for caution (other than perhaps mentally).

My instinct is to do the drill as taught reguardless... until this student's behavior/fear is explained to me by the sensei or justified to me personally by the fellow student.
Since classes are 'at your own risk', does this imply each student dictates the level of 'realness' in their training and does it make the sensei powerless to enforce that level of standard (in order to avoid legal issues) ? and what to do if the levels of risk is different from someone elses? Perhaps the philosophy of today's instructors would be instead of kicking them out and losing business, they expect the person will eventually dropout on their own anyway. (maybe after getting hit hard once).

thanks in advance for your thoughts.
-Ed

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#150291 - 05/28/05 02:18 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kintama (or should I call you one member of the Olsen Twins),

As a quick aside, I got to say member and twins in the same phrase.

Now back to your situation...

I think impact is necessary. You can call it "hard love" if you want to.

But you do a disservice to the student if they do not recognize what happens from a hard strike. For instance, a hard body blow that floors you, in my opinion is a necessity in training. First, you recognize that the pain is something that can be overcome and that you can think through it. If you are not aware of what is happening, you will go all to hell and your attacker is peppering you since now you can'r react. Knowing what is happening is necessary...and that means experience.

The second benefit of hard attacks is to allow the receiver over time to figure out ways of moving his body out of direct impact of the strike to attenuate its power.

If you never strike hard enough to cause some impact, the person will never learn what it's like and thus never learn to deal with it.

However, how you tell or "show" this to your friend, is another question.

-B

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#150292 - 05/28/05 04:59 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Right, thats what I'm thinking...the brown belts should drop him once and a while...although he'd probably quit soon after and then what is he learning...some people are destined to mcdojos (you get all of the confidence without any of the pain). not important really, just curious to what people thought...we'll see. I'm in a beginner's position at this dojo/style (Matsubayashi) and feel it isn't my place to do or say anything about this.

now, the important things to address:

Butterfly (in japanese='chou chou' and anyone that knows dirty words in spanish knows what a 'chocho' is. lol)

Olsen Twins? never thought of them that way... mine always have a bad hair day, can't sing, and can't act....so yeah, I guess there are similarities.

p.s.
you used the word 'hard' 5 times in your last post.

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#150293 - 05/28/05 06:08 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
If I am understanding this correctly, The Brown belt is doing drills with a lower rank. If yes,he should have a reasonable enough amount of control to start extremely light and move up to a level of contact that is enough to "train" them, but not really hurt them.

If it is a lower rank, getting shots in on a brown belt that doesn't want to be on the receiving end, well thats another matter.

A person with four years of trainng should be able to deal with a lower rank, and be able to take some kind of shot in case the lower rank gets lucky.

We are training to fight. Getting hit, sometimes bleeding, bruised, shaken up, is part and parcel of traning to fight. I do not abuse my students, even the Yudansha. I do not tolerate abuse from one student to another. But we are training to fight. Anyone that does not want to receive a blow, or sometimes more importantly, deliver one, is not training fully.

It has been suggested more than once that perhaps these people should take dance lessons instead.

Page

PS I realize that this is the perfect opportunity for MattJ to jump in with his Cobra Kai chant
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#150294 - 05/28/05 08:03 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: BuDoc]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Page,
The better quote from that movie would be:

"No, Ma! Real karate...not at the Y!"

-B

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#150295 - 05/28/05 09:24 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: BuDoc]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Member and twins? Hmmmm.....then BuDoc says:

Quote:

Anyone that does not want to receive a blow, or sometimes more importantly, deliver one, is not training fully




Now I'm not so sure I want to train at your school, Page. Receiving...ok. Delivering? Is that part of the ranking exam?

I think your taking Butterfly's "hard love" a bit too much to heart.......
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#150296 - 05/29/05 01:27 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MattJ]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
thats all histerical...but there was a serious question woven into the topic: how do YOU get rid of a timid spineless jellyfish in your class? or do you try to build him/her up and credit(rank) by improvement as oppossed to standards? and, are you capable of answering that without dick jokes? lol

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#150297 - 05/29/05 02:31 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

But you do a disservice to the student if they do not recognize what happens from a hard strike. For instance, a hard body blow that floors you, in my opinion is a necessity in training. First, you recognize that the pain is something that can be overcome and that you can think through it. If you are not aware of what is happening, you will go all to hell and your attacker is peppering you since now you can'r react. Knowing what is happening is necessary...and that means experience.




I agree with this completely. Tell him to go take ballet lessons.Either that or just ignore his request not to be hit and say "oops" after every shot.


p.s. unit
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#150298 - 05/29/05 06:35 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Kintama,

Reading your original question the first thing I would ask is where the isntructor is during all of this. It sounds like this is not a one time event but a regular occurance.

The only person who should deal with it is the instructor. Both as to what is the adequate level of control and building the students expectations and ablities to deal with it.

Something seems wrong here.

As a student you should be practicing as the instructor directs, not trying to solve other issues.

And classes are never at your own risk, that's a fariy tale that you can assume the risk of your training. There isn't a lawyer or family member alive that won't sue the owners tail off if something happens to you.

The liability or risk in a school is always the instructors.

Your brief comments, and not being present over time, make it impossible to adequately understand the problem.

I once had a new student who would literally break down at the tought of striking someone. They could and did learn, could strike the bag, etc. But they could not hit a person.

Several years later they did spar, being able do deal with blocking and parrying, yet not to striking, but that aside were growing in karate quite well.

Work caused them to move on, and I never got the chance to see if they could progress further.

But ask yourself, who does need karate focus more, those that can take it and hit hard, or those who can't.

I really pity an instructor that drives someone away because they're not tough enough. The goal of the arts ought not just to turn out the hard, but to help individuals develop.

But as I began, I question the sistuation where the instructor is not directly controlling what's taking place, and unfortunately, thats the impression I get from your question.

And my impression may be very wrong.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#150299 - 05/29/05 10:15 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Thanks Victor. I'm a beginner at this dojo, but becasue of my prior training, the instructor pairs me with the brown belts often. The instructor hasn't mentioned anything to me, but that does not mean he hasn't mentioned anything to others. maybe the assumtion is I'll 'do as when in rome...'. I'm not trying to solve any problems, I just concentrate on the training and when I make contact and he makes a face I just say 'oops sorry' every time, like was mentioned.
I don't know where this student was at when he started, so It's not really fair or my place to judge. I agree with your philosophy of not turning someone away that shows progress at a different level than others...if that was not the case, then there wouldn't be any female higher-ranks.
For the people that gave the macho answer, do you apply that same philosophy to women and hit'em as hard as the men? how about to older students? there is a bit of sizing people up and adjusting contact accordingly isn't there? I mean the goal is to be able encourage training the next day, not deter someone. A person's limitations and need for improvement could be physical and/or mental.

This PC dojo stuff is a litle new to me, since back when, the dojo I trained at weeded out the fluff students early on...and come to think of it, there were no women at all and the men were under 50. I think now is the smarter way of accepting people with limitations and improving upon their weaknesses.

The instructor seems to be very good with people in this reguard, I probably just haven't been there long enough to know this particular situation...

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#150300 - 05/29/05 11:04 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MattJ]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Your Killing me Matt

This is just like being in 7th grade again!

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#150301 - 05/29/05 11:16 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
How does it apply to women students? How does it apply to older students?

Frankly does one also eliminate smaller and weaker men?

There are correct cute answers for anyone.

I've know women weaker and stronger than most men. I've known men weaker and stronger than most men.

It is easy to run a MA class by driving everyone but the natural hard and fast away. That was what training was when I started. But over the years my instructors changed their opinions and methods, and I've been training youth and older folks for a very long time.

From my experience young women tend to be more coordinatead, often stronge and more intense sparring than young men.

And women run as far a range of potential as men do. One womnan who's trained with me would be glad to spar with anyone, she only asks they first ride 3,000 miles on their bicycle as she would do to warm up first.

Soon after reaching her black belt with me she began working in NYC and joined a local TKD club with some of her friends. Her instructor knew of her previous training but began her as a beginner. She was doing it to be with her friends and that was fine with her.

About a year later when she was a green belt she started having problems with the men black belts. Because when she was sparring with them and holding her own, the seniors, 2nd dans and above, started not playing by the rules and pounding on her.

I received a call, she was extremely frustrated as she was training by the club rules and they were trying to drive her away.

I pointed out the obvious. First the instructor was an idiot, allowing that to take place. Second, though a green belt there she wasn't really a green belt but a black belt. She was letting her living within the rules work against her. Third, as the instructor wasn't runing the school, she must begin playing by the same rules.

The next class she began sparring with the black belts as normal. The worst 2nd dan started blasting away, so she listened to me and dropped him. And every he got up continued to do so to him and all the rest.

They mad the fatal mistake that she was a green belt becasuse she was a woman wearing a green belt, and they could show her, her place.

Very quickly they discontinued trying to beat on her or the other women and began following the club rules.

Now I consider this a good case how bad an instructor can be. Everything that happens in a school is the instructors responsibility. Perhaps he was letting a lesson occur, but its a dangerous choice, when a small mistake means something far worse in response.

And I've trained and trained with any number of powerful women, and I've traind with any number of less powerful men and women.

There is only training. A club can run itself as it wishes, but driving the less fit, the less hard away, in my mind isn't what karate is. That's something else.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#150302 - 05/29/05 03:43 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank-You Victor, I agree with you and it seems that the dojo is doing a good thing. Once again, you have given me things to think about....

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#150303 - 06/01/05 09:15 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
A brown belt who whines about light contact? Pitiful. The sensei has GOT to straighten this guy out. Or does he want to wind up with a paper tiger BB? At his level he should be letting lower kyus hit him occasionally.

Victor mentioned the other side of the coin; a karateka who couldn't get themselves to hit someone else. I had a student like that, and broke him of it by sparring with him and telling him the lighter he hit me the harder I'd hit back.

I don't like goons, and injuries won't help anyone, but IMHO it's disrespectful to a higher rank to go too easy on them.
_________________________

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#150304 - 06/01/05 09:45 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Ironfoot]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I agree that when you are learning a martial art, you are exposing yourself to injuries, and although injuries should be avoided, contact and conditioning should not. I dont care about geting a smack on the nose, or on the ribs, as long as it doesnt break something, or stop me from training next time. BUT all practitioners need to be able to exersise control. We have eye jab techniques and whenever i get partnered up with someone i tell them that if they get close to my eye, I will hit them really hard. I care about realism and i care about being a good fighter.....but i care more about my eyesight! There has to be control, and there has to be trust. If the brown belt doesnt trust you yet because he has not trained with you then i think its fair enough.
Its when there is no control that things get out of hand. When you do a drill, concentration has to be full at every strike, because if you switch off for a second you will break something, (personal experience). There has to be a consensus about what is dangerous and what is conditioning, and i think that the individual who is the person subject to the drill has the right to dictate,up to a point, what contact he feels comfortable with.
It depends on the situation, you can be a wimp in one situation and not a true "fighter" or in another situation, you might call the person cautious.
I always see the positive side of getting hit, but i also have a job and cannot go there with black eyes all the time!

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#150305 - 06/01/05 09:51 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Ironfoot]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think there is a fine line between pushing a student, and each other, and driving them. I think of it as the Bonsai approach...cut, cut, shape and force. A "blah blah belt should be able to take XXX contact."

In this way of thinking, no matter how long I train, no matter how competent I may get, I will never deserve any belt if I can't take a punch. I already know I can't take a punch...so I should quit now before I bother some advanced belt?

Maybe that is why I like weapons. Control.

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#150306 - 06/14/05 12:01 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
[QUOTE]
My instinct is to do the drill as taught reguardless... until this student's behavior/fear is explained to me by the sensei or justified to me personally by the fellow student....
[/QUOTE]

NO! Absolutely NOT! First and foremost, ALWAYS respect your training partner's wishes. So what if they are a wimp? They may have a valid reason (medically related or otherwise) for non-contact, which is none of your business.

If you have a problem with what you call "realistic" (read "lack of personal control, and thus resorting to brutish use of force") training, DON'T train with the person. Find some other sado-masochistic clown to beat up/or who enjoys getting beaten up.

Whilst classes may be "at your own risk" and whatever silly legal waiver students have to sign these days, it is the instructor's responsibility (as well as every student's responsibility) to ensure a safe training environment. No IFs, no BUTs!

Say some testosterone-psycho comes into your dojo to "train" with you and ends up crippling you... because he needed some "realistic training"... how would you feel? (Apart from the fact, that you're now a quadriplegic and can no longer feel anything below your neck).

Anytime anyone uses the word "realistic" and "training alive", it makes me cringe. It simply means the person has an inability to exercise skillful control or technical prowess.

Hurt your training partner and soon you will have no one to train with... coz they're all sitting on the edge of the mat nursing an injury that could have been avoided in the first place, had the people involved, gotten over their testosterone-induced stupidity.

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#150307 - 06/14/05 04:54 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Is he just making an 'ouchie' face and carrying on regardless? Does he ask for an apology? Does he complain to his sensei?
It is possible that his change in expression is not pain, but frustration/displeasure due to being tagged by the 'new kid' in class.
Also to bear in mind is how hard he strikes you, mirror his intensity and he has nothing to complain about.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#150308 - 06/14/05 07:07 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
update - I spoke to people who have been there longer about this. His behavior is due to a previous injury. the injury was non-MA (car accident?) but was quite serious. sometimes he gets hit anyway by the higher ranks if they forget.

Why wouldn't he just inform people? for new people he just needed to say to me 'no contact please...I had an injury' done.

thanks for your replies

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#150309 - 06/14/05 07:32 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Dont agree at all with you Eyrie.
Firstly you are exagerating
Quote:

Say some testosterone-psycho comes into your dojo to "train" with you and ends up crippling you... because he needed some "realistic training"... how would you feel?



Thats not what anyone said should be done.

Quote:

Anytime anyone uses the word "realistic" and "training alive", it makes me cringe. It simply means the person has an inability to exercise skillful control or technical prowess




Thats a good conclusion you came to, assuming of course you know everything!
This is not a realistic training topic, but there are a lot of people here that value realistic training. There are drills that develop skill and accuracy and others that are for realistic training, of course the person has the right to exclude himself from any activity that he doesnt want to participate in, but dont judge people who spar and who place value in getting hit a couple of times.
What use would it be if you have never been hit before and then you try to defend yourself on the street and you get shocked by the way a punch feels?

Quote:

Hurt your training partner and soon you will have no one to train with... coz they're all sitting on the edge of the mat nursing an injury that could have been avoided in the first place, had the people involved, gotten over their testosterone-induced stupidity.




Not everyone who does contact is testorone fueled!
Dont be so presumptious, the benefits of contact have been proven, the benefits of pressure have been proven.

If he says that he wants no contact then that is his perogative but dont judge people who do.

Its a school, that has certain drills that are to be performed in certain ways for a reason! If the student does not agree with it then he DEFINETELY needs to explain why. If I am injured at a specific part of my body and I cant do a specific drill then I tell the teacher, and I tell him why, I dont just say "I dont want to do it"!
Think about it.

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#150310 - 06/14/05 08:56 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If I've said it once, I've said it a 100 million times....

Kintama knows I wasn't having a rant *at* him (or anyone else). When I say *you*, I mean collectively, as in the *royal* you....

I used to do full-contact (pre protective gear days). I have been hit before, I know what it feels like. I can also dish it out as good as I can take it. But I don't feel it necessary to "have to take a hit" in training or to hit someone "realistically" unless I needed to prove or demonstrate a point. I think I have enough training under my belt to not be fazed in a "real" situation. Isn't that what "training" is for? To train to be calm in an adverse situation?

Let's just say that I know enough about the human body and it's limitations, as well as the limitations (pain threshold) of my training partners to know that "realism" is totally unnecessary. I know (and they know) when it's working or not. Therefore, I prefer to focus on proper execution of technique than on so-called "realistic" training. YMMV.

In any case, the reasons why a student would not want to train "contact" is between the student and the teacher, and is not the business of anyone else, unless said student wishes to share that knowledge. That is, it's the teacher's issue - not yours.

As Kintama has clarified, the student in question had a serious car accident and may have some nerve or physical damage which prevents them from fully participating. That is the student's business. Your role as their training partner is to be sensitive to the fact and to accommodate them. If you cannot do so, or need to go full-on, pick a mutually consenting person to do so with.

I cannot stress this point enough. Even though we do in fact "train at our own risk" (since accidents can and do happen), it should always be "between mutually consenting" people.

BTW, that's royal *you*... not you personally.

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#150311 - 06/14/05 09:28 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I still dont agree.
Quote:

I have been hit before, I know what it feels like. I think I have enough training under my belt to not be fazed in a "real" situation. Isn't that what "training" is for? To train to be calm in an adverse situation?





You do (non royal you ) someone else might not, and they would need to experience it at some stage, I am not advocating full on contact, but some contact.

Quote:

Therefore, I prefer to focus on proper execution of technique than on so-called "realistic" training



Isnt it better to have a balance of both? you said before that you have experience in bouts and sparring, how good/experienced would you be without them, compared to what you are now?

Quote:

As Kintama has clarified, the student in question had a serious car accident and may have some nerve or physical damage which prevents them from fully participating. That is the student's business. Your role as their training partner is to be sensitive to the fact and to accommodate them.




After he disclosed the information then it became understandable.
My role is not to be sensitive to my partners, I dont have a role, I am there to learn, I would not cause unwarranted pain or injury to any of my fellow classmates but, if I feel that someone is not doing it as they should, and that impedes my progress I want to know why.
There should be anough trust and familiarity in the regular students to be able to disclose that info to them.
If you (thats a royal one ) do not then you are training at your own risk!

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#150312 - 06/14/05 12:42 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
1973 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
We all of course train for different reasons. But if training for SD and possible real fights then somewhere along the learning curve the contact you mention is reasonable and desirable.When I achieved sufficient knowledge and rank what I did is work at whatever contact level my partner wanted within reason, regardless of their rank.This was with the head instructor's permission. He was more lenient in such matters after being sued a couple times, even though there were very few serious injuries in his 40 yrs of teaching. However with the lower ranking students or beginners, their lack of control makes them a danger to themselves and their partner so I would give them some guidance through techniques and try to get them to slow it down (they always try to go too fast at first) or ease up a little. I would think a brown belt with 4 yrs training would have had enough of the kind of contact you mention for it not to be an issue.

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#150313 - 06/14/05 07:43 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

You do (non royal you ) someone else might not, and they would need to experience it at some stage, I am not advocating full on contact, but some contact.
...
Isnt it better to have a balance of both?





MA is a "contact" activity, unless you can do a "no-touch" throw... . However, you (non royal you! Nor I!) do not make that determination regarding the degree contact. Your partner does. Even if the activity is partial/light contact, participants should have the option of opting out of the particular activity, with the instructors knowledge.

i.e. if you continue to participate in the activity, then you are implicitly acknowledging consent to the parameters of the activity.

Quote:

how good/experienced would you be without them, compared to what you are now?




I think I'm good enough. I do aikido and jujitsu. So the harder they come at me, the easier it is for me

Quote:

My role is not to be sensitive to my partners, I dont have a role, I am there to learn, I would not cause unwarranted pain or injury to any of my fellow classmates




Can I point out the contradiction here? How do you "not cause unwarranted pain or injury" if you are not sensitive to your movement and your partner's movement?

Can I also suggest that the key to attaining a high level of skill in any MA is sensitivity and control? The ability to sense and be sensitive to your opponent's attacks, his strengths, his weaknesses and to be able to control or neutralize the attack with seemingly effortlessness, is the zenith of martial skill.

All I'm suggesting is that the level of contact should be commensurate with the individual's level of ability... in Kintama's case, the individual's level of ability is somewhat stifled (irrespective of what color belt he's wearing) due to injuries previously sustained.

FWIW, my $0.02


PS: I am carrying a few injuries, and anything more like really light contact (this includes joint locking) to my injuries really irritates me, especially if I have already made it clear to my training partner. The only reason it irritates me, is because if I consent to a "learning modality", I do not expect the activity to be anything more than light contact (including joint locks). Because it is absolutely unnecessary...when you know how. When you get to my age, things don't heal as quickly or as well as they should when you are < 40.


Edited by eyrie (06/14/05 07:54 PM)

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#150314 - 06/14/05 08:09 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

PS: I am carrying a few injuries, and anything more like really light contact (this includes joint locking) to my injuries really irritates me, especially if I have already made it clear to my training partner. The only reason it irritates me, is because if I consent to a "learning modality", I do not expect the activity to be anything more than light contact (including joint locks). Because it is absolutely unnecessary...when you know how. When you get to my age, things don't heal as quickly or as well as they should when you are < 40.




But you have made the reason clear to your partner, and it is with in the context of the drill.

Also, I think the brown belt's problem is a mental one? If I understood correctly, if not then I take all the previous posts back

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#150315 - 06/14/05 08:29 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Also, I think the brown belt's problem is a mental one?




Apparently not. We only "know" it maybe due to "injuries sustained from a car crash". Only he truly "knows" what the reasons are. Even if it is a mental hurdle, he needs to overcome it himself. It is not your role as training partner to take it upon yourself to help him overcome it. That's the instructor's job.

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#150316 - 06/14/05 08:35 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

Even if it is a mental hurdle, he needs to overcome it himself. It is not your role as training partner to take it upon yourself to help him overcome it. That's the instructor's job.




I agree,
the only point that I am arguing over is that it is informaton that should be disclosed to the training partner also, because everyone is accountable, especially in an environment that requires so much trust between the practitioners.

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#150317 - 06/14/05 08:52 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
True. Sometimes it is inevitable that the reasons for someone not wanting to fully participate must be made known to the people that individual trains with. In any case, the instructor should be aware (not necessarily of the specific details), and the individual can choose to make the specific details known to the people they train with.

If they don't choose to make the specific details and nature of their reasons for not wanting to participate fully, clear to the person they are training with, then the training partner must take it in their stride as to whether they can still get the "full benefit" of the session by training with the person.

Sorry for the extremely long sentences.

In short, not every one needs to know *why*. Just be aware and sensitive to your training partner's needs. So that you can have the pleasure of their company on the mat again next week.

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#150318 - 06/15/05 02:10 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I suspect it is a fear of damaging which took very long to heal. I'd probably be the same way, I don't know. even if I had to stay the same rank for years to get over it, I'd still be training and building up to the point I left off at - mentally and physically. I don't blame this guy at all, and I admire the sensei for accomedating a recovering student.
The only aspect I'd suggest to change, is how other students are informed. usually, I suspect it's not an issue for beginner students not doing alot of contact drills anyway. my case was different, I had prior training in a similar style and as a result, even though I'm a beginner in this style, I'm paired up with some brown belt drills. It was an oversight that I was not told by the sensei...although other students were either also unaware, or just failed to tell me.

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#150319 - 07/07/05 09:30 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Eduardo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Nadi, Fiji
I agree that there should be contact mostly so that you'll get used to the shock, and it won't be so much of a shock if you actually do get into a real fight.

I can take body and leg contact and some face contact. But what about hooking kicks to the back of the head with an unpadded heel and strikes to the neck (not accidental ones, by the way, but targeted ones)? Sure, they're controlled, but you never know what your partner's physical condition is - fatigue can cause loss of control of the limbs. And you can't condition someones neck and skull - and groin. And what about using the hands instead of focus pads for hard contact kicking target practice? And overhead shoulder throws on a wooden floor? I ask because I've seen them done during practice and experienced a little of it too, and had to take 4 weeks off training waiting for my neck to heal, and two weeks for my hands to heal.

If I ever get into this situation again, would it be wrong of me to skip that part of training or to ask my partner to hit lightly or not make contact?

It would be ironic if taking up martial arts - both for self-defense and sport - caused you your life because you were training to get your head and neck used to some contact and your partner accidentally hit too hard.

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#150320 - 07/07/05 09:47 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Eduardo]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
'irony'??...it would be less amusing than irony if you get injured and can no longer defend yourself.

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#150321 - 07/07/05 09:49 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Eduardo]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Yes, it would be ironic indeed...
Can you spell "lawsuit waiting to happen"?

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