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#150310 - 06/14/05 08:56 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If I've said it once, I've said it a 100 million times....

Kintama knows I wasn't having a rant *at* him (or anyone else). When I say *you*, I mean collectively, as in the *royal* you....

I used to do full-contact (pre protective gear days). I have been hit before, I know what it feels like. I can also dish it out as good as I can take it. But I don't feel it necessary to "have to take a hit" in training or to hit someone "realistically" unless I needed to prove or demonstrate a point. I think I have enough training under my belt to not be fazed in a "real" situation. Isn't that what "training" is for? To train to be calm in an adverse situation?

Let's just say that I know enough about the human body and it's limitations, as well as the limitations (pain threshold) of my training partners to know that "realism" is totally unnecessary. I know (and they know) when it's working or not. Therefore, I prefer to focus on proper execution of technique than on so-called "realistic" training. YMMV.

In any case, the reasons why a student would not want to train "contact" is between the student and the teacher, and is not the business of anyone else, unless said student wishes to share that knowledge. That is, it's the teacher's issue - not yours.

As Kintama has clarified, the student in question had a serious car accident and may have some nerve or physical damage which prevents them from fully participating. That is the student's business. Your role as their training partner is to be sensitive to the fact and to accommodate them. If you cannot do so, or need to go full-on, pick a mutually consenting person to do so with.

I cannot stress this point enough. Even though we do in fact "train at our own risk" (since accidents can and do happen), it should always be "between mutually consenting" people.

BTW, that's royal *you*... not you personally.

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#150311 - 06/14/05 09:28 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I still dont agree.
Quote:

I have been hit before, I know what it feels like. I think I have enough training under my belt to not be fazed in a "real" situation. Isn't that what "training" is for? To train to be calm in an adverse situation?





You do (non royal you ) someone else might not, and they would need to experience it at some stage, I am not advocating full on contact, but some contact.

Quote:

Therefore, I prefer to focus on proper execution of technique than on so-called "realistic" training



Isnt it better to have a balance of both? you said before that you have experience in bouts and sparring, how good/experienced would you be without them, compared to what you are now?

Quote:

As Kintama has clarified, the student in question had a serious car accident and may have some nerve or physical damage which prevents them from fully participating. That is the student's business. Your role as their training partner is to be sensitive to the fact and to accommodate them.




After he disclosed the information then it became understandable.
My role is not to be sensitive to my partners, I dont have a role, I am there to learn, I would not cause unwarranted pain or injury to any of my fellow classmates but, if I feel that someone is not doing it as they should, and that impedes my progress I want to know why.
There should be anough trust and familiarity in the regular students to be able to disclose that info to them.
If you (thats a royal one ) do not then you are training at your own risk!

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#150312 - 06/14/05 12:42 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
1973 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 20
We all of course train for different reasons. But if training for SD and possible real fights then somewhere along the learning curve the contact you mention is reasonable and desirable.When I achieved sufficient knowledge and rank what I did is work at whatever contact level my partner wanted within reason, regardless of their rank.This was with the head instructor's permission. He was more lenient in such matters after being sued a couple times, even though there were very few serious injuries in his 40 yrs of teaching. However with the lower ranking students or beginners, their lack of control makes them a danger to themselves and their partner so I would give them some guidance through techniques and try to get them to slow it down (they always try to go too fast at first) or ease up a little. I would think a brown belt with 4 yrs training would have had enough of the kind of contact you mention for it not to be an issue.

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#150313 - 06/14/05 07:43 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

You do (non royal you ) someone else might not, and they would need to experience it at some stage, I am not advocating full on contact, but some contact.
...
Isnt it better to have a balance of both?





MA is a "contact" activity, unless you can do a "no-touch" throw... . However, you (non royal you! Nor I!) do not make that determination regarding the degree contact. Your partner does. Even if the activity is partial/light contact, participants should have the option of opting out of the particular activity, with the instructors knowledge.

i.e. if you continue to participate in the activity, then you are implicitly acknowledging consent to the parameters of the activity.

Quote:

how good/experienced would you be without them, compared to what you are now?




I think I'm good enough. I do aikido and jujitsu. So the harder they come at me, the easier it is for me

Quote:

My role is not to be sensitive to my partners, I dont have a role, I am there to learn, I would not cause unwarranted pain or injury to any of my fellow classmates




Can I point out the contradiction here? How do you "not cause unwarranted pain or injury" if you are not sensitive to your movement and your partner's movement?

Can I also suggest that the key to attaining a high level of skill in any MA is sensitivity and control? The ability to sense and be sensitive to your opponent's attacks, his strengths, his weaknesses and to be able to control or neutralize the attack with seemingly effortlessness, is the zenith of martial skill.

All I'm suggesting is that the level of contact should be commensurate with the individual's level of ability... in Kintama's case, the individual's level of ability is somewhat stifled (irrespective of what color belt he's wearing) due to injuries previously sustained.

FWIW, my $0.02


PS: I am carrying a few injuries, and anything more like really light contact (this includes joint locking) to my injuries really irritates me, especially if I have already made it clear to my training partner. The only reason it irritates me, is because if I consent to a "learning modality", I do not expect the activity to be anything more than light contact (including joint locks). Because it is absolutely unnecessary...when you know how. When you get to my age, things don't heal as quickly or as well as they should when you are < 40.


Edited by eyrie (06/14/05 07:54 PM)

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#150314 - 06/14/05 08:09 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

PS: I am carrying a few injuries, and anything more like really light contact (this includes joint locking) to my injuries really irritates me, especially if I have already made it clear to my training partner. The only reason it irritates me, is because if I consent to a "learning modality", I do not expect the activity to be anything more than light contact (including joint locks). Because it is absolutely unnecessary...when you know how. When you get to my age, things don't heal as quickly or as well as they should when you are < 40.




But you have made the reason clear to your partner, and it is with in the context of the drill.

Also, I think the brown belt's problem is a mental one? If I understood correctly, if not then I take all the previous posts back

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#150315 - 06/14/05 08:29 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:


Also, I think the brown belt's problem is a mental one?




Apparently not. We only "know" it maybe due to "injuries sustained from a car crash". Only he truly "knows" what the reasons are. Even if it is a mental hurdle, he needs to overcome it himself. It is not your role as training partner to take it upon yourself to help him overcome it. That's the instructor's job.

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#150316 - 06/14/05 08:35 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

Even if it is a mental hurdle, he needs to overcome it himself. It is not your role as training partner to take it upon yourself to help him overcome it. That's the instructor's job.




I agree,
the only point that I am arguing over is that it is informaton that should be disclosed to the training partner also, because everyone is accountable, especially in an environment that requires so much trust between the practitioners.

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#150317 - 06/14/05 08:52 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MAGr]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
True. Sometimes it is inevitable that the reasons for someone not wanting to fully participate must be made known to the people that individual trains with. In any case, the instructor should be aware (not necessarily of the specific details), and the individual can choose to make the specific details known to the people they train with.

If they don't choose to make the specific details and nature of their reasons for not wanting to participate fully, clear to the person they are training with, then the training partner must take it in their stride as to whether they can still get the "full benefit" of the session by training with the person.

Sorry for the extremely long sentences.

In short, not every one needs to know *why*. Just be aware and sensitive to your training partner's needs. So that you can have the pleasure of their company on the mat again next week.

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#150318 - 06/15/05 02:10 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I suspect it is a fear of damaging which took very long to heal. I'd probably be the same way, I don't know. even if I had to stay the same rank for years to get over it, I'd still be training and building up to the point I left off at - mentally and physically. I don't blame this guy at all, and I admire the sensei for accomedating a recovering student.
The only aspect I'd suggest to change, is how other students are informed. usually, I suspect it's not an issue for beginner students not doing alot of contact drills anyway. my case was different, I had prior training in a similar style and as a result, even though I'm a beginner in this style, I'm paired up with some brown belt drills. It was an oversight that I was not told by the sensei...although other students were either also unaware, or just failed to tell me.

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#150319 - 07/07/05 09:30 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Eduardo Offline
Newbie

Registered: 07/04/04
Posts: 20
Loc: Nadi, Fiji
I agree that there should be contact mostly so that you'll get used to the shock, and it won't be so much of a shock if you actually do get into a real fight.

I can take body and leg contact and some face contact. But what about hooking kicks to the back of the head with an unpadded heel and strikes to the neck (not accidental ones, by the way, but targeted ones)? Sure, they're controlled, but you never know what your partner's physical condition is - fatigue can cause loss of control of the limbs. And you can't condition someones neck and skull - and groin. And what about using the hands instead of focus pads for hard contact kicking target practice? And overhead shoulder throws on a wooden floor? I ask because I've seen them done during practice and experienced a little of it too, and had to take 4 weeks off training waiting for my neck to heal, and two weeks for my hands to heal.

If I ever get into this situation again, would it be wrong of me to skip that part of training or to ask my partner to hit lightly or not make contact?

It would be ironic if taking up martial arts - both for self-defense and sport - caused you your life because you were training to get your head and neck used to some contact and your partner accidentally hit too hard.

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