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#150300 - 05/29/05 11:04 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MattJ]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Your Killing me Matt

This is just like being in 7th grade again!

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_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#150301 - 05/29/05 11:16 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
How does it apply to women students? How does it apply to older students?

Frankly does one also eliminate smaller and weaker men?

There are correct cute answers for anyone.

I've know women weaker and stronger than most men. I've known men weaker and stronger than most men.

It is easy to run a MA class by driving everyone but the natural hard and fast away. That was what training was when I started. But over the years my instructors changed their opinions and methods, and I've been training youth and older folks for a very long time.

From my experience young women tend to be more coordinatead, often stronge and more intense sparring than young men.

And women run as far a range of potential as men do. One womnan who's trained with me would be glad to spar with anyone, she only asks they first ride 3,000 miles on their bicycle as she would do to warm up first.

Soon after reaching her black belt with me she began working in NYC and joined a local TKD club with some of her friends. Her instructor knew of her previous training but began her as a beginner. She was doing it to be with her friends and that was fine with her.

About a year later when she was a green belt she started having problems with the men black belts. Because when she was sparring with them and holding her own, the seniors, 2nd dans and above, started not playing by the rules and pounding on her.

I received a call, she was extremely frustrated as she was training by the club rules and they were trying to drive her away.

I pointed out the obvious. First the instructor was an idiot, allowing that to take place. Second, though a green belt there she wasn't really a green belt but a black belt. She was letting her living within the rules work against her. Third, as the instructor wasn't runing the school, she must begin playing by the same rules.

The next class she began sparring with the black belts as normal. The worst 2nd dan started blasting away, so she listened to me and dropped him. And every he got up continued to do so to him and all the rest.

They mad the fatal mistake that she was a green belt becasuse she was a woman wearing a green belt, and they could show her, her place.

Very quickly they discontinued trying to beat on her or the other women and began following the club rules.

Now I consider this a good case how bad an instructor can be. Everything that happens in a school is the instructors responsibility. Perhaps he was letting a lesson occur, but its a dangerous choice, when a small mistake means something far worse in response.

And I've trained and trained with any number of powerful women, and I've traind with any number of less powerful men and women.

There is only training. A club can run itself as it wishes, but driving the less fit, the less hard away, in my mind isn't what karate is. That's something else.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#150302 - 05/29/05 03:43 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank-You Victor, I agree with you and it seems that the dojo is doing a good thing. Once again, you have given me things to think about....

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#150303 - 06/01/05 09:15 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
A brown belt who whines about light contact? Pitiful. The sensei has GOT to straighten this guy out. Or does he want to wind up with a paper tiger BB? At his level he should be letting lower kyus hit him occasionally.

Victor mentioned the other side of the coin; a karateka who couldn't get themselves to hit someone else. I had a student like that, and broke him of it by sparring with him and telling him the lighter he hit me the harder I'd hit back.

I don't like goons, and injuries won't help anyone, but IMHO it's disrespectful to a higher rank to go too easy on them.
_________________________

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#150304 - 06/01/05 09:45 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Ironfoot]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I agree that when you are learning a martial art, you are exposing yourself to injuries, and although injuries should be avoided, contact and conditioning should not. I dont care about geting a smack on the nose, or on the ribs, as long as it doesnt break something, or stop me from training next time. BUT all practitioners need to be able to exersise control. We have eye jab techniques and whenever i get partnered up with someone i tell them that if they get close to my eye, I will hit them really hard. I care about realism and i care about being a good fighter.....but i care more about my eyesight! There has to be control, and there has to be trust. If the brown belt doesnt trust you yet because he has not trained with you then i think its fair enough.
Its when there is no control that things get out of hand. When you do a drill, concentration has to be full at every strike, because if you switch off for a second you will break something, (personal experience). There has to be a consensus about what is dangerous and what is conditioning, and i think that the individual who is the person subject to the drill has the right to dictate,up to a point, what contact he feels comfortable with.
It depends on the situation, you can be a wimp in one situation and not a true "fighter" or in another situation, you might call the person cautious.
I always see the positive side of getting hit, but i also have a job and cannot go there with black eyes all the time!

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#150305 - 06/01/05 09:51 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Ironfoot]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I think there is a fine line between pushing a student, and each other, and driving them. I think of it as the Bonsai approach...cut, cut, shape and force. A "blah blah belt should be able to take XXX contact."

In this way of thinking, no matter how long I train, no matter how competent I may get, I will never deserve any belt if I can't take a punch. I already know I can't take a punch...so I should quit now before I bother some advanced belt?

Maybe that is why I like weapons. Control.

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#150306 - 06/14/05 12:01 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
[QUOTE]
My instinct is to do the drill as taught reguardless... until this student's behavior/fear is explained to me by the sensei or justified to me personally by the fellow student....
[/QUOTE]

NO! Absolutely NOT! First and foremost, ALWAYS respect your training partner's wishes. So what if they are a wimp? They may have a valid reason (medically related or otherwise) for non-contact, which is none of your business.

If you have a problem with what you call "realistic" (read "lack of personal control, and thus resorting to brutish use of force") training, DON'T train with the person. Find some other sado-masochistic clown to beat up/or who enjoys getting beaten up.

Whilst classes may be "at your own risk" and whatever silly legal waiver students have to sign these days, it is the instructor's responsibility (as well as every student's responsibility) to ensure a safe training environment. No IFs, no BUTs!

Say some testosterone-psycho comes into your dojo to "train" with you and ends up crippling you... because he needed some "realistic training"... how would you feel? (Apart from the fact, that you're now a quadriplegic and can no longer feel anything below your neck).

Anytime anyone uses the word "realistic" and "training alive", it makes me cringe. It simply means the person has an inability to exercise skillful control or technical prowess.

Hurt your training partner and soon you will have no one to train with... coz they're all sitting on the edge of the mat nursing an injury that could have been avoided in the first place, had the people involved, gotten over their testosterone-induced stupidity.

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#150307 - 06/14/05 04:54 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Is he just making an 'ouchie' face and carrying on regardless? Does he ask for an apology? Does he complain to his sensei?
It is possible that his change in expression is not pain, but frustration/displeasure due to being tagged by the 'new kid' in class.
Also to bear in mind is how hard he strikes you, mirror his intensity and he has nothing to complain about.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#150308 - 06/14/05 07:07 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
update - I spoke to people who have been there longer about this. His behavior is due to a previous injury. the injury was non-MA (car accident?) but was quite serious. sometimes he gets hit anyway by the higher ranks if they forget.

Why wouldn't he just inform people? for new people he just needed to say to me 'no contact please...I had an injury' done.

thanks for your replies

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#150309 - 06/14/05 07:32 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: eyrie]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Dont agree at all with you Eyrie.
Firstly you are exagerating
Quote:

Say some testosterone-psycho comes into your dojo to "train" with you and ends up crippling you... because he needed some "realistic training"... how would you feel?



Thats not what anyone said should be done.

Quote:

Anytime anyone uses the word "realistic" and "training alive", it makes me cringe. It simply means the person has an inability to exercise skillful control or technical prowess




Thats a good conclusion you came to, assuming of course you know everything!
This is not a realistic training topic, but there are a lot of people here that value realistic training. There are drills that develop skill and accuracy and others that are for realistic training, of course the person has the right to exclude himself from any activity that he doesnt want to participate in, but dont judge people who spar and who place value in getting hit a couple of times.
What use would it be if you have never been hit before and then you try to defend yourself on the street and you get shocked by the way a punch feels?

Quote:

Hurt your training partner and soon you will have no one to train with... coz they're all sitting on the edge of the mat nursing an injury that could have been avoided in the first place, had the people involved, gotten over their testosterone-induced stupidity.




Not everyone who does contact is testorone fueled!
Dont be so presumptious, the benefits of contact have been proven, the benefits of pressure have been proven.

If he says that he wants no contact then that is his perogative but dont judge people who do.

Its a school, that has certain drills that are to be performed in certain ways for a reason! If the student does not agree with it then he DEFINETELY needs to explain why. If I am injured at a specific part of my body and I cant do a specific drill then I tell the teacher, and I tell him why, I dont just say "I dont want to do it"!
Think about it.

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