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#150290 - 05/28/05 01:46 PM Training at your own risk?
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
here's the scenerio:
During partner drills there is a brown belt (in this case, about 4 years of training I believe) in class that gets really annoyed even to the slightest tap of contact. Other students at the same level in training practice a resonable amount of contact - from a realistic distance but not pulling the punches, yet not full power...the equivalent to light to medium contact to the body and none to light contact to the head. I think that is the standard that is considered reasonable. (I know it varies per level of training...lets just talk about the level I've described for simplicity)

If a fellow student is matched up with the person who complains of any contact, what should that student do? comply to the timidness of the student by not making contact or do the drill as taught and realistic?

keep in mind, the timid student appears to just have a fear of getting hit, I don't think the reasons have a medical justification for caution (other than perhaps mentally).

My instinct is to do the drill as taught reguardless... until this student's behavior/fear is explained to me by the sensei or justified to me personally by the fellow student.
Since classes are 'at your own risk', does this imply each student dictates the level of 'realness' in their training and does it make the sensei powerless to enforce that level of standard (in order to avoid legal issues) ? and what to do if the levels of risk is different from someone elses? Perhaps the philosophy of today's instructors would be instead of kicking them out and losing business, they expect the person will eventually dropout on their own anyway. (maybe after getting hit hard once).

thanks in advance for your thoughts.
-Ed

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#150291 - 05/28/05 02:18 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Kintama (or should I call you one member of the Olsen Twins),

As a quick aside, I got to say member and twins in the same phrase.

Now back to your situation...

I think impact is necessary. You can call it "hard love" if you want to.

But you do a disservice to the student if they do not recognize what happens from a hard strike. For instance, a hard body blow that floors you, in my opinion is a necessity in training. First, you recognize that the pain is something that can be overcome and that you can think through it. If you are not aware of what is happening, you will go all to hell and your attacker is peppering you since now you can'r react. Knowing what is happening is necessary...and that means experience.

The second benefit of hard attacks is to allow the receiver over time to figure out ways of moving his body out of direct impact of the strike to attenuate its power.

If you never strike hard enough to cause some impact, the person will never learn what it's like and thus never learn to deal with it.

However, how you tell or "show" this to your friend, is another question.

-B

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#150292 - 05/28/05 04:59 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Right, thats what I'm thinking...the brown belts should drop him once and a while...although he'd probably quit soon after and then what is he learning...some people are destined to mcdojos (you get all of the confidence without any of the pain). not important really, just curious to what people thought...we'll see. I'm in a beginner's position at this dojo/style (Matsubayashi) and feel it isn't my place to do or say anything about this.

now, the important things to address:

Butterfly (in japanese='chou chou' and anyone that knows dirty words in spanish knows what a 'chocho' is. lol)

Olsen Twins? never thought of them that way... mine always have a bad hair day, can't sing, and can't act....so yeah, I guess there are similarities.

p.s.
you used the word 'hard' 5 times in your last post.

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#150293 - 05/28/05 06:08 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
If I am understanding this correctly, The Brown belt is doing drills with a lower rank. If yes,he should have a reasonable enough amount of control to start extremely light and move up to a level of contact that is enough to "train" them, but not really hurt them.

If it is a lower rank, getting shots in on a brown belt that doesn't want to be on the receiving end, well thats another matter.

A person with four years of trainng should be able to deal with a lower rank, and be able to take some kind of shot in case the lower rank gets lucky.

We are training to fight. Getting hit, sometimes bleeding, bruised, shaken up, is part and parcel of traning to fight. I do not abuse my students, even the Yudansha. I do not tolerate abuse from one student to another. But we are training to fight. Anyone that does not want to receive a blow, or sometimes more importantly, deliver one, is not training fully.

It has been suggested more than once that perhaps these people should take dance lessons instead.

Page

PS I realize that this is the perfect opportunity for MattJ to jump in with his Cobra Kai chant
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#150294 - 05/28/05 08:03 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: BuDoc]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Page,
The better quote from that movie would be:

"No, Ma! Real karate...not at the Y!"

-B

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#150295 - 05/28/05 09:24 PM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: BuDoc]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Member and twins? Hmmmm.....then BuDoc says:

Quote:

Anyone that does not want to receive a blow, or sometimes more importantly, deliver one, is not training fully




Now I'm not so sure I want to train at your school, Page. Receiving...ok. Delivering? Is that part of the ranking exam?

I think your taking Butterfly's "hard love" a bit too much to heart.......
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#150296 - 05/29/05 01:27 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: MattJ]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
thats all histerical...but there was a serious question woven into the topic: how do YOU get rid of a timid spineless jellyfish in your class? or do you try to build him/her up and credit(rank) by improvement as oppossed to standards? and, are you capable of answering that without dick jokes? lol

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#150297 - 05/29/05 02:31 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

But you do a disservice to the student if they do not recognize what happens from a hard strike. For instance, a hard body blow that floors you, in my opinion is a necessity in training. First, you recognize that the pain is something that can be overcome and that you can think through it. If you are not aware of what is happening, you will go all to hell and your attacker is peppering you since now you can'r react. Knowing what is happening is necessary...and that means experience.




I agree with this completely. Tell him to go take ballet lessons.Either that or just ignore his request not to be hit and say "oops" after every shot.


p.s. unit
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#150298 - 05/29/05 06:35 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Kintama]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Kintama,

Reading your original question the first thing I would ask is where the isntructor is during all of this. It sounds like this is not a one time event but a regular occurance.

The only person who should deal with it is the instructor. Both as to what is the adequate level of control and building the students expectations and ablities to deal with it.

Something seems wrong here.

As a student you should be practicing as the instructor directs, not trying to solve other issues.

And classes are never at your own risk, that's a fariy tale that you can assume the risk of your training. There isn't a lawyer or family member alive that won't sue the owners tail off if something happens to you.

The liability or risk in a school is always the instructors.

Your brief comments, and not being present over time, make it impossible to adequately understand the problem.

I once had a new student who would literally break down at the tought of striking someone. They could and did learn, could strike the bag, etc. But they could not hit a person.

Several years later they did spar, being able do deal with blocking and parrying, yet not to striking, but that aside were growing in karate quite well.

Work caused them to move on, and I never got the chance to see if they could progress further.

But ask yourself, who does need karate focus more, those that can take it and hit hard, or those who can't.

I really pity an instructor that drives someone away because they're not tough enough. The goal of the arts ought not just to turn out the hard, but to help individuals develop.

But as I began, I question the sistuation where the instructor is not directly controlling what's taking place, and unfortunately, thats the impression I get from your question.

And my impression may be very wrong.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#150299 - 05/29/05 10:15 AM Re: Training at your own risk? [Re: Victor Smith]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Thanks Victor. I'm a beginner at this dojo, but becasue of my prior training, the instructor pairs me with the brown belts often. The instructor hasn't mentioned anything to me, but that does not mean he hasn't mentioned anything to others. maybe the assumtion is I'll 'do as when in rome...'. I'm not trying to solve any problems, I just concentrate on the training and when I make contact and he makes a face I just say 'oops sorry' every time, like was mentioned.
I don't know where this student was at when he started, so It's not really fair or my place to judge. I agree with your philosophy of not turning someone away that shows progress at a different level than others...if that was not the case, then there wouldn't be any female higher-ranks.
For the people that gave the macho answer, do you apply that same philosophy to women and hit'em as hard as the men? how about to older students? there is a bit of sizing people up and adjusting contact accordingly isn't there? I mean the goal is to be able encourage training the next day, not deter someone. A person's limitations and need for improvement could be physical and/or mental.

This PC dojo stuff is a litle new to me, since back when, the dojo I trained at weeded out the fluff students early on...and come to think of it, there were no women at all and the men were under 50. I think now is the smarter way of accepting people with limitations and improving upon their weaknesses.

The instructor seems to be very good with people in this reguard, I probably just haven't been there long enough to know this particular situation...

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