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#148534 - 07/01/05 04:34 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Gavin]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I believe just like life the martail arts is setup so that the more you study the more you learn. And yes a lot of people are study fighting/MA without kata but as they get older all they have is past glory and contenders hopes. The past/present setup gives the young and old things to ponder and work toward. These accu points are taught at the advance level for a reason, we don't want a bunch of Intermediated mined MA with this knowledge, going around using these skills just for fun.

As for setup training drills to apply these techniques, I often thought of that. But its almost like reinventing the wheel they already exist in the bunkias of the katas.

I also use kata to weed out the bullies and bad boys that just want to learn to hurt people/fight better, I don't mind that but after kata training they are moldable and open for input. Theres is just something about self perefection/competeing against yourself thats humbling. They see through attempting to know & alignment the M,B & S they have more confidance, control and power. So they have less urges/needs to want to fight.

Have any of you tried to create your own kata based on your best fighting techniques or these acu points. Its almost redundant its all been done almost. And again why reinvent the wheel unless you can improve upon it. It ain't that easy, when its already layed out.
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#148535 - 07/24/05 12:10 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
First, Kenpoman, I would LOVE to know what motivated you to ask this question.

Then, I would want something to drink, mix a gatorade, and reply OMGoodness YES you need kata!

Kata is where EVERYTHING comes from. All you techniques are in kata. All the pressure point locations and striking methods are in kata. Complex concepts like energy, elemenatl stance, special points, yin-yong, and all kinds of advanced striking methods are in kata. Without being taught kata, you would stagnate because you have nothing new to draw on. PLUS you would have no idea WHERE your technique came from. Not so much "Well because kata X has X movement like that, it HAS to be performed like that exactly and ONLY." but just to get an idea of how the movement portion goes so you get a better picture of how the movements work outside of the technique and have a more solid idea of where the movements are coming from. If you see X performed in kata, it gives you a better idea of what you are to do to the person, rather than watching sensei locked up with some big nasty guy over-and-over.
Kind of get that last point? Yeah, the college kid is showing right now...

Anyways, kata is AMAZINGLY essential to ANYONES martial arts training. Techniques WORK because of the concepts behind them. Why does that arm-bar work? Two-way action.
How come that wrist-lock hurts so much? Complex torque.
Simple examples yeah, but with all the X's it started to feel like my algebra class again.

All these basic concepts and more advanced one WORK because we found them in kata. We found them in the techniques kata showed us. WE broke-down and broke-apart WHY they work, and found those concepts. WE find NEW concepts through going over kata again and again and finding new techniques, or seeing a movement in a new light, and finding a new concept and finding a new way to do something that we can apply to ALL of our techniques. That process is VITAL to the developement of the martial arts. It's not just tradition it's what's at the core of ALL of our arts. If we deny that, we are denying as the masters intended us to practice THEIR techniques for years to come. You think if Soken thought kata was going to become defunct in "This day and age" he would have work with Fusei Kise so much with them?
It's not our day and age that's making kata seem "less relevant" It's US the practioners that are making kata "less relevant" then. Because WE are the ones keeping our arts, and kata, alive. If we deny that tried and true system of kata and the concepts it teaches us, we are denoucing the very methods the old masters and CREATORS of out arts had painstakingly developed and created to make sure their arts, and a small bit of themselves, would last until the end of time, still serving their original purpose of showing people how to protect themselves from the MANY outside dangers that never went away and still exist today.
So if it's been working for centuries, and it's as their creators had intended and intended for them to do..

Why not?


Edited by Demonologist437 (07/24/05 12:12 AM)
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#148536 - 07/26/05 06:00 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Neko456]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

As for setup training drills to apply these techniques, I often thought of that. But its almost like reinventing the wheel they already exist in the bunkias of the katas.




I don't know about reinventing the wheel, maybe rediscovering it. Now before I go any further I'd like to state that I love kata and their application, but as an experienced Doorman I serisously beleive that the way most of the applied kata theory that is taught simple doesn't work on the street. I teach and have been taught PP applications without the use of Kata's, I'll refer to them occasionally, but they are not my exclusive vechile for teaching. I don't believe that with the adernaline pumping it is possible actively target a fire point to follow up with a wood point without some form of conditioning drills against more intense mobile focussed attacks. I see the kata as a blueprint that contains the infomrmation, you then take this information and then drill it into self defence.

Quote:

I also use kata to weed out the bullies and bad boys that just want to learn to hurt people/fight better, I don't mind that but after kata training they are moldable and open for input. Theres is just something about self perefection/competeing against yourself thats humbling. They see through attempting to know & alignment the M,B & S they have more confidance, control and power. So they have less urges/needs to want to fight.





I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but I'm not really that bothered who I teach pressure points too (with the exception of kids, I don't believe that Children should be shown or have PP's applied on them). I don't really overly emphazie it to new students because they simply don't have the skill to attack PP's. I gradually introduce them once the student starts to have an understanding of the basics, and I'll only ever introduce them as tweaks and more advanced points of attack as a compliment to the core of their arsenal. I think sometimes people make more of the PP's than they actually are. I have so far never ever met anyone who has knocked anyone out on the street using the PP's alone, however I have and know of plenty of people who have put people down with a good right cross. Don't get me wrong, I do fully believe them, and have used single PP shots occasionally to stun an opponent or to get in for a restraint, but thus far have never meet anyone to apply them in a full on brawl. Personally I think it's safer teaching these wannabe bully boys PP's than it is teaching them to throw a proper reverse punch or decent front kick. The basic techniques that a student will learn when they first walk into a Dojo are far easier and more dangerous to apply in the hands of an unskilled fighter than PP's will ever be.

All this is ofcourse IMVHO!
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#148537 - 07/26/05 06:39 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I have a 'little' expierience in kyusho and tuite, my journey is just begining in these areas.

However my awnser would be NO it cant be taught EFFECTIVLY without kata, however it can be taught in theory but you are missing the structure of kata and the priciples that it delivers that makes PP's work,

im talking angles, timing, variation of technique from different katas, my study of kata includes taking the 'effective' sequences out and breaking them down into partner work, bunkai if you like, then the PP and Tuite potential can be explored.

If you remove the kata then you have no framework to work from, no blueprint that has been tried and tested so to effecivly teach you must invent something else or stick with kata.

In relation to Gavins post I can see the 'vital' areas (groin, eyes, neck etc etc) being far more dangerous being taught than PPs.

For me kyusho and tuite should come to students once shodan is achieved and a good level of basic training, kata and conditioning has been done, say something like 4-6 years trianing minamum, teaching begineers or people with minamul expierience is utter madness, teach them to throw a good punch first.

it would seem that this area of karate has suffered greatly from commercial 'exposure' and loss of morales to teach what is essentially the heart of karate to anyone who has the bucks.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#148538 - 07/26/05 08:09 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Quote:

However my awnser would be NO it cant be taught EFFECTIVLY without kata, however it can be taught in theory but you are missing the structure of kata and the priciples that it delivers that makes PP's work,

im talking angles, timing, variation of technique from different katas, my study of kata includes taking the 'effective' sequences out and breaking them down into partner work, bunkai if you like, then the PP and Tuite potential can be explored.





shoshinkan me old mucker I've gotta (respectively as always)disagree with you on this one. The other day I was teaching some PP work from a standing grapple clinch. My audience was a former european kick boxing champion, 2 wing chun guys and a friend whose trained with every system under the sun. None of the them have any Kata experience whatsoever, by the end of the session they were applying some basic PP's.

The approach I usely take is to first get them to "find" the point, this usually involves showing them where the point is (I like this bit *evil grin*). Getting them to lightly whap each other a bit, then show them how to get to the point in combat. I'll try and give a quick example:

Let's take a nice accessable point Stomach-6 or ST6. To find this point, tense the muscles of the jaw and place your thumb on the most prominent part of the jaw muscle, relax the muscle, the thumb should now be resting on the jaw bone this is where the point is. This point responds best to a sharp direct strike at a 45 degree angle upwards into the centre of the skull.

How to get there: From a really tight clinch if you've got the room this point is a great target for a short sharp head butt, palm heel or an elbow. If your opponents got their shoulders tucked up so you can't get into it, try to bury your head into their head, viciously rubbing into their face. This should create a bit of room, once your head is tightly into the point, wrap your hand around the other part of their head to clamp down and then rub your head in at the proper angle. This is agony!

That's generally the way I'll approach showing the points to start off with, then you can go onto say that it is a Earth point, what kata it applies to or what ever else floats your boat.

I generally pick on a specific point, and play around with. Does it work best to rubbing, striking or pushing. What affect does it have on the rest of the body? What other points does it open up? I don't need a Kata to do that, just an acu point chart and a willing victim, oops, partner.

From what I've read of Rand Cardwell he doesn't teach kata anymore, yet has written one of the most advanced pressure point manuals I've read "The Western Bubishi". Russell Stutely is one of europes leading pressure point experts, but a direct quote when asked what would be covered on the week long training camp was "absolutely NO kata". These are two of the worlds foremost pressure point practitioners and are leading the field in terms adrenaline response and combat PP apllication, yet from what I've read they don't actually teach kata anymore.

Sorry that was a bit of a long one, but just trying to illustrate that you don't need know kata to learn PP. Can't wait to meet up, it'll be nice to compare notes on the two different approaches!

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#148539 - 07/26/05 11:28 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Your point is fair Gavin (and based on expierience), and you have far more interest in the subject and expierience than myself.

I think I was looking at PPs as an extension of the arts, ie teaching begineer martial artists PPs would require some structure, kata delivers that structure.

However you were training expierienced martial artists, so my need for kata would seem not as appropiate.

Basically I have a relativy narrow view on what karate is and certainly what it isnt. If i had my way it wouldnt be commercialised, it wouldnt be 'segmented' and it certainly wouldnt be avalaible to all and sundry.

i realise its a prehistoric view, elitest and narrow minded - but hey I still sleep at night !

Will send you a pm fella re training
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#148540 - 07/26/05 12:34 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hey man, it's all gravy! (Heard it on MTV the other day, trying to be hip!)

I don't want to come across as anti-kata here, coz I most definately not. I love seeing the look on peoples eyes when you show someone a decent bit of bunkai for a move that they've been doing for years. I believe that the kata's are brilliant for teaching. For me though, I have found them a bit of a backward way of approaching PP teaching. I prefer to show someone the targets (in this case the pressure points) and then show them how to apply it, using kata, drills and free play. At the end of the day the question was do you need to use Kata to teach PP's, in my opinion I can teach PP's with or without kata (probably better without to be honest, but that's probably lack of experience on my part).

I'll respond to your PM tomorrow mate!

_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#148541 - 07/26/05 06:12 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
indeed its all gravy Gavin ! Look forwar dto hearing from you mate
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#148542 - 08/04/05 01:39 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Gavin]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
No offense Gavin, but SOMEBODY needs to read Chris Thomas's
article on PP's in the situations you described.
It's VERY easy to go fro one point to the next because the techniques at least CAME from your kata right? So since the pressure points are in kata, wasy to get into pressure pont strikes are already built in. The masters wouldn't put a technique in that use pressure points and not have a way to use the points with the techniques. Additionally, if you're telling me that you can't hit soemthing the size of a quater, even with some practice that is just saddening. And besides, what's thepoint of practicing your techniques? To do them, and accurately, while in stressful situations.
Plus, if you're saying that while aprrying the guys arm you can't even get near a target, of the at least 4-6 availabvle to you during a parry, all the size of a quarter, with practice no less, and then while you're pinning their arm go up for the finshing shot to the head and NOT be able to find a valid target?
Again, what is the point of practicing techniques?
To get more familiar with our targeting, to become more accurate with them, and to still BE accurate in stressful situations.
So why couldn't you get a good pressure point knockout with your techniques nearly evertime then? You said you know and understand points, right?
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#148543 - 08/04/05 01:56 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Gavin]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
After adding in my 2 cents again, I will admit, most of the time blunt truama is better than exact points. In our dojo, we usually start with easy arm points to activate (lung5-6,
MUE-28, Large Intestine10, you get my drift..) and the points you need for a good arm-bar (triple warmer 12+11).
And yeah, it can help to start easy with points like that, if it's what you are trying to teach. But, I would still myself start with a technique, and highlight how the points work in the technique, so you've got an application and see how points are not the be-all, end-all, just fit in with everything else and make things MUCH easier. But that's just me, and I can for the most part agree with what you are doing. But, I still do think you need kata to learn the much nastier aspects with the pressure points like sound, stance, connections, yin-yong, quadrants, and all that stuff that you learn at black belt.
Also, didn't mean to be TO harsh if I was, I just think that like I said in my first big post, WE the martial artists of today, dictate where our arts go. If we start going in every direction with blueprint-only level ideas we could lose an integral portion of what makes our art what it is. To be honest, I think we've only barely scartched the surface of what real karate really is. Pressur points and TRUE martial arts is just starting to come back into play, and we're just now starting to get the advanced concepts, we're just now starting to get an IDEA of all the things the old masters did that made them SO effective in their day that they could take on heavily armed, well trained warriors, completely unarmed and come out not to worse for wear. So if we're still learning, why make up our own way for something that we really still don't completely understand?
_________________________
"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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