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#148524 - 05/24/05 05:41 PM To Kata or not to Kata
Kempoman Offline
Veteran

Registered: 11/15/00
Posts: 1484
Loc: Houston, TX
So here is a question for the group.

Can kyusho/tuite effectively be taught without the study of kata? Now I said effectively
because I know that it can be taught without kata but what do you end up with in the end if you
remove kata? I ask this question because I notice a trend in this direction (DSI, Kyusho International)
where the training is more technique based rather than principle based.

Thoughts?


Kempoman
_________________________
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#148525 - 05/24/05 06:08 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
Kosh Offline
Member

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 302
Loc: Novo mesto, Slovenia
Hmm, an interesting question.
I think both can be taught effectively, at least to some degree. In my opinion it also depends on the person learning it.

Personally, I prefer to have the kata also. I don`t like memorizing techniques, which is what I would have to do if I had no kata. Now, if I don`t know or forget how to do a technique, I just go look in the kata.

I think it`s easier to learn kyusho, tuite with the kata. Also without the kata you always need a partner to train with.
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Peter ...Understanding is a three-edged sword...

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#148526 - 05/24/05 06:37 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Nice topic Kempoman. Sure to generate alot of discussion.

I am a firm beleiver in kata. A staunch traditionalist, if you will.

Having said that, I do beleive kyusho can be taught effectively without kata. I don't, however think that it can be passed indefinately without kata of some sort.

Kata, in my opinion, is the collective works for transmitting a system. Sure, one or two high level guys can teach kyusho completely and effectively, but what about the ones they pass it to?

By using kata, and repeating the principles in that kata over and over, it can help to ensure that nothing is left out.

Short answer: Yes Kyusho can be taught effectively without kata. No, it is not an ideal way to do it. And I don't think DKI(as a collective) is anywhere near the level of applying it to start a breakthrough transmission method.

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Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#148527 - 05/24/05 06:41 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: BuDoc]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Apologies. I have confused DKI with KI and DSI.

I know nothing of Kyusho International or DSI or their training or teaching methods.

Perhaps they have a better idea. I will reserve comment.

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Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#148528 - 05/24/05 07:16 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
In my experience with DKI and KI both held seminars teaching based on the assumption that the people attending would integrate Kyusho into their own art and practice. I guess if they didn't practice kata they could still get something out of it. It could be taught as frosting or cake. It depends on your appetite.

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#148529 - 05/25/05 09:28 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: oldman]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
If people say that PP techniques are found in kata and you recognise that kata is merely a number of techniques perormed in a sequence, then there would appear to be no logical reason why you shouldn't learn PP techniques by performing basic techniques.
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#148530 - 05/28/05 04:51 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: JohnL]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
You could just learn pressure points via the techniques. I don't regret learning kata. It's a big world and people seeking pressure point education come with the gamut of native and acquired skills in fighting. I'd say minimally, you have to have skills. How you got them is another matter. It would be hard to apply the teaching if you didn't have the skills to apply the information that is given to you. The same would apply to a person in a good martial arts school who is not sufficiently advanced to use the information. I'd say you don't necessarily get one before the other either. As my skills get better, I find more ways to use the pressure points. Sometimes I learn a new technique from the pressure point study and that makes my skills better. It goes both ways.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#148531 - 05/29/05 02:20 AM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Kempoman]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
It can be learned without kata,but I believe it is easier to learn and remembered with kata.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#148532 - 06/21/05 05:57 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: SANCHIN31]
Cesar Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/12/05
Posts: 15
Loc: new york
I firm believer in kata. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that how it was done in the past? techniques are in kata. Seems like which came first kata or technique(chicken or egg)

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#148533 - 06/24/05 08:27 PM Re: To Kata or not to Kata [Re: Cesar]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I think it this modern age where more and more people are no longing practicing kata, there isn't really a choice as to whether or not we teach the pressure points without Kata. If we don't find other effective ways of teaching the points, then a huge number of people are going to miss out on them. Hopefully we'll have a massive switch to retro training methods where Kata will become more en vouge again (hell, flares came back into fashion so anythings possible! ), but with events such as the UFC and other MMA stuff making the uneducated look upon the traditional arts like musseum pieces, I think the secret is to provide options to both camps. Kata for the tradionalists and maybe some drills for the others?

Just my two cents worth!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
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