FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 26 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
mohdnabeel, sunny, swordy, jerrybarry24, SenseiGregT
22915 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Ed_Morris 4
AndyLA 3
Zombie Zero 2
Matakiant 2
futsaowingchun 2
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4 5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
28 29 30
New Topics
STX Kickboxing Seminar
by Marcus Charles
09/09/14 06:57 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
mindfullness meditation
by
01/06/09 11:27 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Eugue Ryu
by
03/27/07 12:06 AM
Recent Posts
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
Yesterday at 09:05 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Matakiant
09/18/14 07:11 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
09/18/14 06:07 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
09/16/14 04:43 PM
Eugue Ryu
by kolslaw
09/12/14 03:35 PM
Biu Tzu- 1st section applications
by futsaowingchun
09/05/14 10:56 PM
2014 World Championships Chelyabinsk: The Gallery
by ergees
09/01/14 03:51 AM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/31/14 09:43 PM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Forum Stats
22915 Members
36 Forums
35575 Topics
432495 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#148420 - 05/24/05 10:49 AM Wing Chun and Ground fighting
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
thoughts or comments?

Top
#148421 - 05/24/05 10:54 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Care to be more specific?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#148422 - 05/24/05 10:56 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Things to think about?

1. How vulnerable a person is on the ground vs someone standing.
2. How often “real” street fights aren't one person vs. one person.
3. How often in “real” street fights people have broken bottles, bats, knifes, ect..
4. How vulnerable are you when you shoot in like most grappler's do?
A well trained knee, and a good fook sao can go a long way. Think about it you are exposing a very delicate part of your body (your head) to a free for all.
5. If someone teaches you how to defend against a person with a knife.. are you going to
ask them ”what happens when I get stabbed?”
I am not talking about basic first aid.
6. What environment was Judo and jujitsu created under?( could be wrong I will go look this up) I don't believe ground fighting was very popular during Japan's large waring periods. I would imagine that Submission fighting wasn't practical arsenal in battle.
7. How safe is it to fight with someone for 10 minutes on the ground? I have seen ground fights last longer in sports events.

I love and respect Judo/ jujitsu players, but I am not a professional fighter. I only care about protecting myself.

Top
#148423 - 05/24/05 11:51 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
coxne Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 419
Loc: Ohio, USA
Those are interesting questions. I suggest you find a qualified instructor in your area. Good Luck.

In all seriousness...
1. There are many techniques for when you are on the ground and your oponent is standing.
2. I am sure there are some occasions where it is one on one, but does it really matter? If you want to protect yourself like you claim you do, you wouldn't pput yourself in the position of being in danger.
3. Again, I am sure it happens. but, same comment as I said in #2.
4. Well, don't shoot in then.
5. More than likely I will.
6. I don't see how these questions pertain to kung fu, but maybe I am wrong.
7. How safe is it to fight anyone anywhere for 10 minutes? Why would you want to? If you want to protect yourself like you claim you do then you want to take them out quickly, then run like mad.

These questions would have better bearing in the Judo forum.

Top
#148424 - 05/24/05 11:59 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by monji112000 -

Quote:

1. How vulnerable a person is on the ground vs someone standing.




It depends. No sane person is going to drop to the floor on their back in a street fight. But a relevant question is how vulnerable are both people on the ground? If one guy knows groundfighting and the other does not, well.....

Quote:

2. How often “real” street fights aren't one person vs. one person.




My personal experience has been that more fights are one-on-one than not, but that would vary by area, etc, I'm sure.

Quote:

3. How often in “real” street fights people have broken bottles, bats, knifes, ect..




Again, not that often in my experience, but elsewhwere...?

Quote:

4. How vulnerable are you when you shoot in like most grappler's do?
A well trained knee, and a good fook sao can go a long way. Think about it you are exposing a very delicate part of your body (your head) to a free for all.




You would think so, but in reality, trained grapplers will shoot in on you from very close distance and very quickly. By the time you raise your knee, you are halfway to the ground. The shoot is only one type of takedown, in any
case. Most grapplers are familiar with several types takedowns.

Quote:

5. If someone teaches you how to defend against a person with a knife.. are you going to
ask them ”what happens when I get stabbed?”
I am not talking about basic first aid.




??????????????????????

Relevance to the topic?

Quote:

6. What environment was Judo and jujitsu created under?( could be wrong I will go look this up) I don't believe ground fighting was very popular during Japan's large waring periods. I would imagine that Submission fighting wasn't practical arsenal in battle.




Modern groundfighting was refined in Brazil, for challenge matches and streetfights there. Most military battles involve weapons, so I imagine groundfighting was not a focal point on the battlefeild.

Quote:

7. How safe is it to fight with someone for 10 minutes on the ground? I have seen ground fights last longer in sports events.




Not sure of your point. Any other type of fight is going to be safer?

Quote:

I love and respect Judo/ jujitsu players, but I am not a professional fighter. I only care about protecting myself.




And they don't?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#148425 - 05/24/05 12:02 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
On the contrary, I think this is a good Kung Fu topic. I am a WC student (this is a kung fu style), and many people would like to talk about ground fighting in reference to this fighting style.

I don't fight on the ground, these thoughts were to spur a logical discussion on the need to add ground fighting into WC.

Top
#148426 - 05/24/05 12:21 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
Quote:

It depends. No sane person is going to drop to the floor on their back in a street fight. But a relevant question is how vulnerable are both people on the ground? If one guy knows ground fighting and the other does not, well.....

No but In my experience and most people fights happen in groups not one on one matches. Most people like to have people “backing them up”, so rolling on the ground and being vulnerable is a very BIG problem.

Quote:

My personal experience has been that more fights are one-on-one than not, but that would vary by area, etc, I'm sure.

Its very rare to be in bar fight, ect.. and have One person fighting another person, with NO other people influencing the fight. I am not talking from my own experience only, I have talked to many other fighters to reach this fact.

Quote:

Again, not that often in my experience, but elsewhere.?
YES PEOPLE FIGHT DIRTY. LOL have to seen any bar fights? Have you been mugged before?


Quote:
You would think so, but in reality, trained grappler's will shoot in on you from very close distance and very quickly. By the time you raise your knee, you are halfway to the ground. The shoot is only one type of takedown, in any
case. Most grappler's are familiar with several types takedowns.

Yes I know, thats why I said a well trained knee. Why raise your knee? Jam forward as low/high as the situation calls for.

Quote:

The argument of WHAT IF you get taken to the ground in a Sports match. It parallels the knife question.


Relevant to the topic.

Quote:
Modern ground fighting was refined in Brazil, for challenge matches and street fights there. Most military battles involve weapons, so I imagine ground fighting was not a focal point on the battlefield.
BJJ comes from Japan. Russian Judo.. Japan. You can apply personal application.. but its still perfected in Japan when it was created. I was commenting on the background that needed this style.

Quote:


Not sure of your point. Any other type of fight is going to be safer?

I love and respect Judo/ jujitsu players, but I am not a professional fighter. I only care about protecting myself.
And they don't?

I am not discussing the practicality of any style only Wing Chun and Ground fighting.

Top
#148427 - 05/24/05 01:10 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Hmmm....you ask questions, then shoot down all the answers that don't fit your obviously very limited knowledge.

Quote by monji112000 -

Quote:

I don't fight on the ground, these thoughts were to spur a logical discussion on the need to add ground fighting into WC.




That is highly debatable. You have an axe to grind against groundfighting (probably because you do not know any), and use the cover of semi-legit questions to mask your true intentions.

You think you can avoid being taken down in all cases in a fight? You are delusional, but thanks for the laugh. Please spar some groundfighters, and learn for yourself.

PS - You think you can get into a knife fight and not get cut or stabbed? LOL!! Have YOU ever been in a real fight?

*shakes head, walks away*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#148428 - 05/24/05 01:37 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
(not the topic but.. training to not get stabbed would be the whole purpose of knife defense training.)

has anyone adapted WC to the ground? combining BJJ with WC ect..?

Top
#148429 - 05/24/05 02:29 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
coxne Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 419
Loc: Ohio, USA
In order to become a well rounded fighter, yes, you will need to learn a ground game. I take kung fu and ju-jitsu (4 month newb at ju-jitsu), but they are separate classes and different schools. And being a four month newb in ju-jitsu, I know there are more ways to take someone down than to just shoot at the legs. And if you do throw up a good knee, good job, you just gave the ground guy the exact thing he was going for.

Top
#148430 - 05/24/05 05:14 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
Ju_Jitsu_kid Offline
Member

Registered: 05/14/05
Posts: 48
Loc: New York, New York
Ive been at Ju jitsu for 6 years, im experience in Ground work and Standing, Let me just say that we are talking street fighting here, ive been in a few so heres my 2 cents, Your talking about a street fight, you will never know what your enemy is thinking, so if you think you can get a good shot in with your knee on someone shoots go right ahead, take into account an experienced fighter is gonna shoot when hes already touching you ( or atleast I would) by time u got your knee off the ground your half way to the floor. As for multiple opponents and weapons , if a guy pulls out a knife a gun or a bat, your better off just walking away, is it really worth death? Or worse, total paralysis ( in my eyes thats no way to live) Multiple Oppenets, well this is what I did, I threw one guy and immediatly got ontop of him and put his arm in a lock, and threatened to break it unless his friends backed off took me a total of 3 or 4 seconds to lock him, and hell that worked, his buddies seemed to care enough about his health to back off.

Top
#148431 - 05/24/05 05:34 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Ju_Jitsu_kid]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
To be a good all around fighter you will need to know how to deal with every range of attack from kicking range to punching range to knee and elbow range clinch range yes and even ground range. Not many stand up fighters are prepared for a grapplers charge(shoot) thats why most times grapplers succeed in taking down a stand up martial artist. One technique that I learned to be very effective against a grapplers charge is called the sprawl learn it practice it and you will have a better chance against a grappler. Also dont get me wrong Im not against grappling as I have taken BJJ and Shooto for about 4 years.
_________________________
Talk is cheap take it to the pit.

Top
#148432 - 05/24/05 10:09 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

:D(not the topic but.. training to not get stabbed would be the whole purpose of knife defense training.)

has anyone adapted WC to the ground? combining BJJ with WC ect..?




How about actually using your wing chun on the ground ?
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

Top
#148433 - 05/24/05 10:22 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Before this thread inevitably devolves into a giant crap tornado, everyone who's going to claim "anti-grappling", or that WC "has" every technique of BJJ, please read the grappling FAQ.

Top
#148434 - 05/24/05 10:56 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Hedgehogey]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Before this thread inevitably devolves into a giant crap tornado, everyone who's going to claim "anti-grappling", or that WC "has" every technique of BJJ, please read the grappling FAQ.




EXTREMELY biased FAQ, what a joke.

It was posted on bullshido.net probaly written by bullshido.net members, everyone knows who and what that site is ALL about. I could just as easily make an FAQ that makes channel surfing the holy grail defense against any type of ground preferred fighting. ACtually, here it is.

Q: How is channel surfing the best defense against ground fighting?

A: Because your outside rolling on the ground, and im inside relaxing in my chair.

Martial arts are semantics for the body.
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

Top
#148435 - 05/25/05 09:45 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Sanchin]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
I was simply trying to talk about Applying WC on the ground.
I guess thats not possible?

Top
#148436 - 05/25/05 12:01 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
That question is meaningless without context. Apply it against who? Against someone with no or limited ground skills? Sure.

Against someone trained in groundfighting? Possible, but much less likely.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#148437 - 05/25/05 12:25 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Do you train with techniques that go to the ground? Then it is possible to use WC on the ground. Also, like Matt said, if you're talking about someone with no grappling experience, then you are still in a good position.

Top
#148438 - 05/25/05 02:59 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Sanchin]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:



EXTREMELY biased FAQ, what a joke.





I suppose you have something to add or some compelling evidence to bring to our attention?

Top
#148439 - 05/25/05 03:12 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Hedgehogey]
coxne Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 419
Loc: Ohio, USA
despite the overtone on the faq that grappling arts are superior to all, it does make good points. The grappling on broken glass saying that a grappler won't roll in it is kind of far fetched though.

Top
#148440 - 05/25/05 05:43 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Hedgehogey]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
When grappling first came out alot of grapplers didnt know how to punch or kick they mostly just submitted you or if they did hit or punch you it was more of a ground and pound style. As grappling evolved they realized they needed to be more well rounded in stand up fighting thats why alot of grapplers nowdays combine Muay thai with grappling. Also vice versa where the stand up fighters realized to become a better more well rounded fighter that they will have to incorperate some kind of ground style to counter the grapplers. From my experiences what I have found out is that a grappler fears a good puncher way more then he does a good grappler and of course again vise versa.
_________________________
Talk is cheap take it to the pit.

Top
#148441 - 05/26/05 04:07 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Rumble]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
I haven't read the other posts, but there is always controversy between these two arts. Especially because WC has not churned out any real good fighters within the last decade or so.

Here is the main problem with WC: alot of crappy teachers, alot of BS. Sometimes they try to introduce their school as "reality based" and try to promote hitting eachother. Then when you see them spar, they pitter patter with rabit punches (sloppy) and displaced kicks. Some don't focus enough on the fighting aspects. Some are too stiff, rigid, and have no internal mechanics or fundamentals.

WC is GREAT base art, or a great art to build ONTO a base. But by itself, if you rely solely on the style, you better be 10 years into it or it will get you beat (and practice every day). It is too calculated, too precise, and too "ideal" hence in the end too restricted. I've seen barely any students who could generate good power (barely any use the hips).

For modern grapplers, the stances are too narrow, and the head is completely unguarded. It is best to use the principles, awareness, techniques, (centerline, attack from the outside etc.) without being restricted by the actual methods of the art. Most good BJJErs could easily take down WCers because of their lack of striking power and rooting. But WC is far from useless.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Top
#148442 - 05/28/05 08:05 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
The controversy is not between WC and Ground fighting its between Strikers and Ground fighters. BJJ think that they are the perfect fighting style. When in fact they are good sport fighters.

The funny thing is that your hips generate slow strong power. Shoulders can be faster if needed. The trick is you use your WHOLE BODY. WC is a combination of most Shaolin styles, JMO. Shoalin boxing (most) start their power from their ANCLE (not the hips). heel, knee , hip, shoulder ... a chain reaction. Shock power is also another Shaolin idea, Long fist boxing, ect.. WC is a little of all of it.

Choy lay fut, WC, Hung Gar, Jow Ga ect.. its all the same idea basic math problem.

I can generate just as much power as you can with your hips. I can guard my head, and have a wide stance (which is what my stance is anyway)

Root is something you must practice. I am constantly training my root.. I welcome you to test it anytime.

The fact is simple people who train for standing only do bad on the ground. People who train for the ground only do bad standing. Its not rocket science! So train for both if your going into a sports competition.

The problem with every ART is that Most ARTIST are really BS ARTISTS.

Top
#148443 - 05/28/05 09:25 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Yes, as long as one is not restricted (heck, I don't even care if people cross train), and are fully aware of their strengths/weaknesses, then I'm all for Wing Chung. I've just seen alot of people who use it the way exactly its done in a form, which IS the best way to learn. But as you get more advandced, probably not the best way to fight. But since the rooting, and power is already there, one can engage in broken rhythim and structure.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Top
#148444 - 05/30/05 03:05 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
How can you fight exactly the way its done it the form? Are we talking about Yip Man wing chun?
Most Forms in Kung fu are application based, WC isnt. You have ideas, then you add them together to make what you need.
Yes Yip man's stance is ODD! LOL it took me 4 months to start to be able to fight with it.

Yes WC has 1 punch in total.

My Sigung (not leung ting) feals that you can answer every (fighting) problem from our theory (the forms). This coming from someone who
1 was a private diciple
2 participated in many school fights in HK (mostly against Choy lay fut ),
3 has allways said to picks fights in bars to test your skill (Many many good storys!)
4. has had a running challenge for anyone who questions his style to come and test it (until his retirement in 2000 )

The people who created these martial arts were very good fighters. Its allways best to adapt with what every you can master. Most schools are BS.. its just the nature of the beast.

Top
#148445 - 06/01/05 08:43 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
coxne Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 419
Loc: Ohio, USA
Quote:

How can you fight exactly the way its done it the form?


You can't. take part of the form, and apply it to suit your needs.

Quote:

My Sigung (not leung ting) feals that you can answer every (fighting) problem from our theory (the forms). This coming from someone who
1 was a private diciple
2 participated in many school fights in HK (mostly against Choy lay fut ),
3 has allways said to picks fights in bars to test your skill (Many many good storys!)
4. has had a running challenge for anyone who questions his style to come and test it (until his retirement in 2000 )





So your teacher was a bully, picking fights just to fuel his ego? Besides, how does this have to do with grappling any longer? If you want to fight on the ground, practice ground fightings. Take ju-jitsu, greco roman, or adapt your wc to fight on the ground. Stand up is not the end all be all way to fight. Neither is ground. To be a well rounded fighter, you need them both.

Top
#148446 - 06/01/05 10:47 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
You can't. take part of the form, and apply it to suit your needs.

You can't take part of the form and apply it. Well you can do anything.. but thats not what he had in mind. Each movement is a idea, you must combine the ideas to make a technique. examples: turning your horse+Tan+punch or Gan+tan+triangle step.

So your teacher was a bully, picking fights just to fuel his ego?

No it was always suggested that this is the ONLY WAY TO TEST YOUR SKILL(in real environment). Even In HK this was the best way to see if you could handle a "STREET" fight. EGO is something any Kung Fu school teaches to discard.

Stand up is not the end all be all way to fight. Neither is ground. To be a well rounded fighter, you need them both.

AGAIN YOU ARE STATING THE OBVOISE The point was to talk about how people cross train and adapt. What techniques have you found to work in X position on the ground. What points from XYZ style did you see that help in DFG position ECT..

LOL

Top
#148447 - 06/17/05 09:12 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
Well guys, I belive it is the advantage vers advantage in this one. Your not good on ground they get you on ground not good. You good standing they cant get you on ground they in trouble. I work on not gettin put on the ground in first place.(counter throwing,tackles, and sweeps)

Top
#148448 - 06/18/05 04:30 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd take slight issue with an earlier comment that ground-fighting is a japanese speciality. I was training TKD in Finland for a while and they included wrestling on their syllabus as many street fighters were wrestlers (free-style and greco-roman) and this was before UFC. The other thing was that in a cold country it's possible to slip on the icy ground and find yourself on your back. Therefore if you do WC in the winter, it might be a pertinant question about ground techniques.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#148449 - 06/18/05 08:14 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: trevek]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
I studied WC for 6 1/2 years as for ground fighting we did cover it and did seminars in it where I was learning.

However, have you ever watched Grandmaster William Cheung get attacked in at a seminar by a Wing Tzun Student.

He got attacked to the ground, and it was very sad to see he was getting his a$$ handed to him.
_________________________
It wasnt the bow or the arrow......It was Robin Hood.

Top
#148450 - 06/22/05 03:47 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: madmattg]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=70&op=nextnewest

there is another of VC in UFC. I can't comment as I don't train WC. Is either clip reliable as to WC on the ground?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

Top
#148451 - 06/22/05 04:39 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: madmattg]
Mich Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 23
Loc: Washington
There are Wing Chun schools that incorporate grappling well. Here's one, for example:

(scroll to the bottom of the page)
http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com/whatiswc2.html

Top
#148452 - 06/23/05 04:27 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Mich]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Observations:

The "takedown" picture was a not very good outer trip takedown. I realize that you need to offbalance before tripping/reaping, but Chow (assuming that's him) is allowing a HUGE gap between himself and his opponent. Also, he's raised his leg way too high.

The "Mounted" picture, I honestly don't understand what he's trying to do there. He seems to be:

-Putting himself BACK IN HALF GUARD
-Attempting an unnecesary crossface

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is going to go for a shoulder crank or armpit armbar on the overhooked arm (nevermind the aforementioned halfguarding) but even if that were so, his hips are too low on his opponent's body. He should be hiked up much higher. Also, the overhook is too loose.

The armbar picture doesn't seem too bad, though chow's knees aren't pinched together, which detracts greatly from the sub's effectiveness. Still, it's wether he's armbarring skilled people that counts.

In fact, is he even fielding anyone in competition?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

Top
#148453 - 06/23/05 07:03 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Ubermint]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
There is absolutely no point in comparing BJJ to WC.
One most fights on the street are not started by martial artists, so I dont care what anyone says, you all know that people start hitting with their arms and try to punch kick. Well WC is very good in stand up and the GOOD WC practitioner will take any layman down.
Most street fights end up on the ground because someone got knocked to the ground, the reason wing chun is effective is because we are doing the knocking and we dont stop even when the person is down.
In the case that a wing chun guy faces a grappler (personaly I havent seen or heard of two MAists fight outside the ring) and the grappler takes you down he will have you submitting in a lock faster then you can say "I will raise my knee."

So one is superior in stand up and one in ground fighting.
Ok nothing new. The advanteg of the WC vs grappling is that you always start off standing up, and the advantage of grappling is that if you have not trained against it you will get taken down quite easily.

So...conclusion.....learn both. I intend to learn BJJ after a few more years of WC.

P.S. I read those FAQ from Bullshido and that is the most biased crap I have ever heard, they make good points but its a pity that they are hidden amongst all the other crap. "there is no evidence that stand up fighters have a better chance of survival against multiple opponents" Gimme a break!

Top
#148454 - 06/23/05 06:35 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
Longduckdong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 7
Some styles of Kung Fu teach ground fighting as well as standing fighting, I don't know about Wing Chung. I've been taking Shaolin Ch'uan Fa for 5 years and I've been exposed to nearly every type of empty hand combat there is. I would also like to say that you can use Wing Chung on the ground, you still aim for the same points with your hands and feet you just happen to be on the ground.

Top
#148455 - 06/23/05 07:14 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Longduckdong]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Yes you can hit the eyes and groin etc, but its a whole different ball game on the ground, there are kung fu styles which have ground works, but wing chun is not one of them, its mostly and by far striking.

Top
#148456 - 06/23/05 08:19 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MAGr]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
In WC, unless you have alot of experience, I could say that you have less protection against groundfighters than in other gong fu styles. In various gong fu styles, and even Taiji, the rooting can be so deep that it becomes very difficult to topple someone who is both rooted and mobile. Of course they will eventually get you, trick is to get more leverage than they have on you, and to sink your center of gravity as they attempt to get lower.
_________________________
Truth comes from the absolute stillness of the mind...

Top
#148457 - 06/25/05 09:45 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I hope no one minds me jumping in here. I just saw this post and had to offer my own answers…

Things to think about?

Quote:


1. How vulnerable a person is on the ground vs someone standing.




Somewhat. It completely depends on the circumstances. Most grapplers and ground fighters I know train to take people down and be on TOP of them using the bottom positions only in emergencies (such as when they get taken down).

Quote:


2. How often “real” street fights aren't one person vs. one person.




I’ve seen a LOT of one on one fights since 1979/1980. That’s going back a long way. I’d say that they happen more often than not.

Quote:


3. How often in “real” street fights people have broken bottles, bats, knifes, ect..




Not really that often. People instinctively understand that the stakes go up when such items appear. Also, fights using these items don’t often occur because the person WITHOUT such weapons usually doesn’t stick around to fight. I mean, who WOULD?! Would YOU fight someone with a weapon when you didn’t have one?

Quote:


4. How vulnerable are you when you shoot in like most grappler's do?
A well trained knee, and a good fook sao can go a long way. Think about it you are exposing a very delicate part of your body (your head) to a free for all.




I’m NEVER vulnerable to a knee when I take someone down. That’s mainly because I don’t use a shot to get the takedown. There ARE other means.

However, using the knee as a takedown defense by itself has a LONG history of being ineffective.

Quote:


5. If someone teaches you how to defend against a person with a knife.. are you going to
ask them ”what happens when I get stabbed?” I am not talking about basic first aid.




Don’t understand your point.

Quote:


6. What environment was Judo and jujitsu created under?( could be wrong I will go look this up) I don't believe ground fighting was very popular during Japan's large waring periods. I would imagine that Submission fighting wasn't practical arsenal in battle.




That would again depend on the circumstances wouldn’t it? Submission fighting is competed as a sport but it isn’t just a sport. The “submissions” involved in that sport are things which cause DAMAGE to the human body. They aren’t “pillow fighting”. Joint locks break the arms, dislocate joints, and render people unconscious. Pretty deadly “sport” wouldn’t you say?

Besides, military actions involve weapons. It’s stupid to fight someone empty-handed when they’re holding a weapon. If you want to use weapons for self defense, then use weapons for self defense. This however is a martial art forum whereby we discuss martial arts. And although weaponry can be considered a martial art – it isn’t normally thought of in that way.

Quote:


7. How safe is it to fight with someone for 10 minutes on the ground? I have seen ground fights last longer in sports events.




Who said anything about fighting with someone for 10 minutes? Do you understand WHY those fights last that long? That’s because the skill level between the combatants is even. If you fight with someone of equal skill on the street, that situation could ALSO last that long. Who’s to say it couldn’t (unless the police arrive, etc)?

Quote:


I love and respect Judo/ jujitsu players, but I am not a professional fighter. I only care about protecting myself.




Are you saying that pro fighters can’t protect themselves or, are you merely saying that you don’t think you could ever have a need for fighting on the ground?

-John

Top
#148458 - 06/25/05 05:49 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
I had typed a long reply to several quotes from people in this thread, but I have decided to keep it short instead.

Clearly most people here, including some people who say they practise "Wing Chun", assume WC is a "style" and contains certain actions while omitting others. My understanding of what is WC is fundamentally different to all this thinking, so I will try not to get involved in these "Wing Chun vs..." discussions

There seems to be far too much generalising by most people here, as if you possess the complete knowledge of what is and is not WC or any other style.

Top
#148459 - 06/25/05 06:08 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MAGr]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

There is absolutely no point in comparing BJJ to WC.




Nevertheless, the grappling shown in those photos was crap.

Quote:


P.S. I read those FAQ from Bullshido and that is the most biased crap I have ever heard, they make good points but its a pity that they are hidden amongst all the other crap. "there is no evidence that stand up fighters have a better chance of survival against multiple opponents" Gimme a break!




Cite something specific.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

Top
#148460 - 06/25/05 10:25 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Fangshendo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
When you fight"on the street" you are fighting with no rules,no ref and no points.What are the odds a fight will go to the ground?If you or your opponent is skilled in any kind of fighting,the odds are good.Any style that says "stand up" or grappling is the only way to fight is missing the mark.

Top
#148461 - 06/25/05 10:46 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Fangshendo Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Ottawa Ontario Canada
I don't want to be disrespectful,but do you people fight as if your life depended on it,or do you all fight for points?This style vs that,ground vs striking this weapon vs that weapon,how about fighting to win? Martial arts are not what you see on the screen,martial arts were developed to combat an overwhelming force either in numbers or technology using what tools were available.To fight, all ranges must be addressed;weapons,kicking,striking,grappling,trapping and psycological.

Top
#148462 - 06/25/05 10:58 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Fangshendo]
specter Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 49
Loc: Tampa, Fl.
Hey i have a question for you: Why would a groundfighter get into a streetfight with you in the first place? if he is truly a martial artist he wont be trying to get into fights. why would it matter in the first place? do you expect to be attacked by a bjj fighter? why is that even important? if you are attacked or mugged by a common street thug i dont think the mugger will have practiced bjj or ANY martial arts of any kind for that matter. so why do you need to be able to fight a ground fighter? is that a very realistic thing to think that youre going to be attacked by a groundfighter? to be in a street fight or bar fight i expect you have to be a bit of an a**hole. just dont make people angry and it wont be likely that youll be attacked.
_________________________
"The pessimist knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" -Warrel Dane

Top
#148463 - 06/26/05 10:40 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: specter]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
*slaps head*

Specter -

Do you know how many people in the USA have done wrestling?

Wrestling is taught from grade school up to college. Lots of guys (and more and more women) have done wrestling. So actually, it is quite realistic to think that you may be attacked by a ground fighter.


It is very likely in a street fight that you may end up on the ground by intent or accident. My own (admittedly limited) experience has shown that at least 50% of my brawls ended up on the ground, one way or the other.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#148464 - 06/26/05 12:11 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Matt, you are DEAD on man.


-John

Top
#148465 - 06/26/05 01:21 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I agree with Matt too.

The other thing Spectre, is that what you "expect" and what really happens are two different things. Just because you didn't expect the guy to bring a knife or gun, doesn't mean it's not going to happen.

-B

Top
#148466 - 06/26/05 05:07 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: butterfly]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
I think a large problem is the reluctance of many practitioners to move backwards when faced with someone moving in for a grab of some kind. All the videos demonstrate the "stand up" practitioner failing to move backwards or out of the way, and failing to mount any attack upon the telegraphed step in leg.

I think it is of benefit to prevent a fight going to the ground, and this is done poorly by many fighters, but you must of course also be prepared for a possible ground fight.

Top
#148467 - 06/26/05 05:26 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MattJ]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Yes ok, half of the US has done wrestling but....

a. some of us are not in the US.

b. Most of those wrestlers that encompass the group you are talking about are crap.

c. Yes brawls end up on the ground but most of the time its not because of someone grabbing you its because someone got knocked down, well I am trained to do the knocking.


These are just counter points, I am not saying that fights do not go down to the ground but like you said half of them do, so what about the other half. If you want to be a complete fighter you have to train at all ranges.

Top
#148468 - 06/27/05 01:08 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: someotherguy]
Gula Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/04
Posts: 78
Quote:


I think it is of benefit to prevent a fight going to the ground.




This easier said than done.

Most times the takedown is timed to the point where you either are covering from punches when you have a limited vision and balance or when you strike. When you start to deliver the punch you have your feet planted to the ground wich reduces your reaction time to "move out of the way".. so in my experience if one shoots your legs the most effective way is to sprawl.
_________________________
No Brain, No Pain!

Top
#148469 - 07/11/05 10:09 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MAGr]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

Yes ok, half of the US has done wrestling but....



b. Most of those wrestlers that encompass the group you are talking about are crap.
.





Well, wouldn't the "crap" have an advantage over the "no idea whatsoever"?
_________________________
Optional signature you may use to appear at bottom of your posts. Note: The Signature feature is currently not enabled by this bulletin board's administrator. You may use UBB Code in this field, but not HTML. The UBB Code Image tag is not permitted, however.

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Cord, Gavin, JasonM, MattJ, Reiki 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga