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#148450 - 06/22/05 03:47 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: madmattg]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Links&file=viewlinkinfo&id=70&op=nextnewest

there is another of VC in UFC. I can't comment as I don't train WC. Is either clip reliable as to WC on the ground?
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#148451 - 06/22/05 04:39 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: madmattg]
Mich Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 23
Loc: Washington
There are Wing Chun schools that incorporate grappling well. Here's one, for example:

(scroll to the bottom of the page)
http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com/whatiswc2.html

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#148452 - 06/23/05 04:27 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Mich]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Observations:

The "takedown" picture was a not very good outer trip takedown. I realize that you need to offbalance before tripping/reaping, but Chow (assuming that's him) is allowing a HUGE gap between himself and his opponent. Also, he's raised his leg way too high.

The "Mounted" picture, I honestly don't understand what he's trying to do there. He seems to be:

-Putting himself BACK IN HALF GUARD
-Attempting an unnecesary crossface

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is going to go for a shoulder crank or armpit armbar on the overhooked arm (nevermind the aforementioned halfguarding) but even if that were so, his hips are too low on his opponent's body. He should be hiked up much higher. Also, the overhook is too loose.

The armbar picture doesn't seem too bad, though chow's knees aren't pinched together, which detracts greatly from the sub's effectiveness. Still, it's wether he's armbarring skilled people that counts.

In fact, is he even fielding anyone in competition?
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#148453 - 06/23/05 07:03 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Ubermint]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
There is absolutely no point in comparing BJJ to WC.
One most fights on the street are not started by martial artists, so I dont care what anyone says, you all know that people start hitting with their arms and try to punch kick. Well WC is very good in stand up and the GOOD WC practitioner will take any layman down.
Most street fights end up on the ground because someone got knocked to the ground, the reason wing chun is effective is because we are doing the knocking and we dont stop even when the person is down.
In the case that a wing chun guy faces a grappler (personaly I havent seen or heard of two MAists fight outside the ring) and the grappler takes you down he will have you submitting in a lock faster then you can say "I will raise my knee."

So one is superior in stand up and one in ground fighting.
Ok nothing new. The advanteg of the WC vs grappling is that you always start off standing up, and the advantage of grappling is that if you have not trained against it you will get taken down quite easily.

So...conclusion.....learn both. I intend to learn BJJ after a few more years of WC.

P.S. I read those FAQ from Bullshido and that is the most biased crap I have ever heard, they make good points but its a pity that they are hidden amongst all the other crap. "there is no evidence that stand up fighters have a better chance of survival against multiple opponents" Gimme a break!

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#148454 - 06/23/05 06:35 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
Longduckdong Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 7
Some styles of Kung Fu teach ground fighting as well as standing fighting, I don't know about Wing Chung. I've been taking Shaolin Ch'uan Fa for 5 years and I've been exposed to nearly every type of empty hand combat there is. I would also like to say that you can use Wing Chung on the ground, you still aim for the same points with your hands and feet you just happen to be on the ground.

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#148455 - 06/23/05 07:14 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Longduckdong]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Yes you can hit the eyes and groin etc, but its a whole different ball game on the ground, there are kung fu styles which have ground works, but wing chun is not one of them, its mostly and by far striking.

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#148456 - 06/23/05 08:19 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MAGr]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
In WC, unless you have alot of experience, I could say that you have less protection against groundfighters than in other gong fu styles. In various gong fu styles, and even Taiji, the rooting can be so deep that it becomes very difficult to topple someone who is both rooted and mobile. Of course they will eventually get you, trick is to get more leverage than they have on you, and to sink your center of gravity as they attempt to get lower.
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#148457 - 06/25/05 09:45 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I hope no one minds me jumping in here. I just saw this post and had to offer my own answers…

Things to think about?

Quote:


1. How vulnerable a person is on the ground vs someone standing.




Somewhat. It completely depends on the circumstances. Most grapplers and ground fighters I know train to take people down and be on TOP of them using the bottom positions only in emergencies (such as when they get taken down).

Quote:


2. How often “real” street fights aren't one person vs. one person.




I’ve seen a LOT of one on one fights since 1979/1980. That’s going back a long way. I’d say that they happen more often than not.

Quote:


3. How often in “real” street fights people have broken bottles, bats, knifes, ect..




Not really that often. People instinctively understand that the stakes go up when such items appear. Also, fights using these items don’t often occur because the person WITHOUT such weapons usually doesn’t stick around to fight. I mean, who WOULD?! Would YOU fight someone with a weapon when you didn’t have one?

Quote:


4. How vulnerable are you when you shoot in like most grappler's do?
A well trained knee, and a good fook sao can go a long way. Think about it you are exposing a very delicate part of your body (your head) to a free for all.




I’m NEVER vulnerable to a knee when I take someone down. That’s mainly because I don’t use a shot to get the takedown. There ARE other means.

However, using the knee as a takedown defense by itself has a LONG history of being ineffective.

Quote:


5. If someone teaches you how to defend against a person with a knife.. are you going to
ask them ”what happens when I get stabbed?” I am not talking about basic first aid.




Don’t understand your point.

Quote:


6. What environment was Judo and jujitsu created under?( could be wrong I will go look this up) I don't believe ground fighting was very popular during Japan's large waring periods. I would imagine that Submission fighting wasn't practical arsenal in battle.




That would again depend on the circumstances wouldn’t it? Submission fighting is competed as a sport but it isn’t just a sport. The “submissions” involved in that sport are things which cause DAMAGE to the human body. They aren’t “pillow fighting”. Joint locks break the arms, dislocate joints, and render people unconscious. Pretty deadly “sport” wouldn’t you say?

Besides, military actions involve weapons. It’s stupid to fight someone empty-handed when they’re holding a weapon. If you want to use weapons for self defense, then use weapons for self defense. This however is a martial art forum whereby we discuss martial arts. And although weaponry can be considered a martial art – it isn’t normally thought of in that way.

Quote:


7. How safe is it to fight with someone for 10 minutes on the ground? I have seen ground fights last longer in sports events.




Who said anything about fighting with someone for 10 minutes? Do you understand WHY those fights last that long? That’s because the skill level between the combatants is even. If you fight with someone of equal skill on the street, that situation could ALSO last that long. Who’s to say it couldn’t (unless the police arrive, etc)?

Quote:


I love and respect Judo/ jujitsu players, but I am not a professional fighter. I only care about protecting myself.




Are you saying that pro fighters can’t protect themselves or, are you merely saying that you don’t think you could ever have a need for fighting on the ground?

-John

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#148458 - 06/25/05 05:49 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
someotherguy Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 69
I had typed a long reply to several quotes from people in this thread, but I have decided to keep it short instead.

Clearly most people here, including some people who say they practise "Wing Chun", assume WC is a "style" and contains certain actions while omitting others. My understanding of what is WC is fundamentally different to all this thinking, so I will try not to get involved in these "Wing Chun vs..." discussions

There seems to be far too much generalising by most people here, as if you possess the complete knowledge of what is and is not WC or any other style.

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#148459 - 06/25/05 06:08 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: MAGr]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

There is absolutely no point in comparing BJJ to WC.




Nevertheless, the grappling shown in those photos was crap.

Quote:


P.S. I read those FAQ from Bullshido and that is the most biased crap I have ever heard, they make good points but its a pity that they are hidden amongst all the other crap. "there is no evidence that stand up fighters have a better chance of survival against multiple opponents" Gimme a break!




Cite something specific.
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