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#148440 - 05/25/05 05:43 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Hedgehogey]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
When grappling first came out alot of grapplers didnt know how to punch or kick they mostly just submitted you or if they did hit or punch you it was more of a ground and pound style. As grappling evolved they realized they needed to be more well rounded in stand up fighting thats why alot of grapplers nowdays combine Muay thai with grappling. Also vice versa where the stand up fighters realized to become a better more well rounded fighter that they will have to incorperate some kind of ground style to counter the grapplers. From my experiences what I have found out is that a grappler fears a good puncher way more then he does a good grappler and of course again vise versa.
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#148441 - 05/26/05 04:07 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: Rumble]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
I haven't read the other posts, but there is always controversy between these two arts. Especially because WC has not churned out any real good fighters within the last decade or so.

Here is the main problem with WC: alot of crappy teachers, alot of BS. Sometimes they try to introduce their school as "reality based" and try to promote hitting eachother. Then when you see them spar, they pitter patter with rabit punches (sloppy) and displaced kicks. Some don't focus enough on the fighting aspects. Some are too stiff, rigid, and have no internal mechanics or fundamentals.

WC is GREAT base art, or a great art to build ONTO a base. But by itself, if you rely solely on the style, you better be 10 years into it or it will get you beat (and practice every day). It is too calculated, too precise, and too "ideal" hence in the end too restricted. I've seen barely any students who could generate good power (barely any use the hips).

For modern grapplers, the stances are too narrow, and the head is completely unguarded. It is best to use the principles, awareness, techniques, (centerline, attack from the outside etc.) without being restricted by the actual methods of the art. Most good BJJErs could easily take down WCers because of their lack of striking power and rooting. But WC is far from useless.
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#148442 - 05/28/05 08:05 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
The controversy is not between WC and Ground fighting its between Strikers and Ground fighters. BJJ think that they are the perfect fighting style. When in fact they are good sport fighters.

The funny thing is that your hips generate slow strong power. Shoulders can be faster if needed. The trick is you use your WHOLE BODY. WC is a combination of most Shaolin styles, JMO. Shoalin boxing (most) start their power from their ANCLE (not the hips). heel, knee , hip, shoulder ... a chain reaction. Shock power is also another Shaolin idea, Long fist boxing, ect.. WC is a little of all of it.

Choy lay fut, WC, Hung Gar, Jow Ga ect.. its all the same idea basic math problem.

I can generate just as much power as you can with your hips. I can guard my head, and have a wide stance (which is what my stance is anyway)

Root is something you must practice. I am constantly training my root.. I welcome you to test it anytime.

The fact is simple people who train for standing only do bad on the ground. People who train for the ground only do bad standing. Its not rocket science! So train for both if your going into a sports competition.

The problem with every ART is that Most ARTIST are really BS ARTISTS.

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#148443 - 05/28/05 09:25 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Yes, as long as one is not restricted (heck, I don't even care if people cross train), and are fully aware of their strengths/weaknesses, then I'm all for Wing Chung. I've just seen alot of people who use it the way exactly its done in a form, which IS the best way to learn. But as you get more advandced, probably not the best way to fight. But since the rooting, and power is already there, one can engage in broken rhythim and structure.
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#148444 - 05/30/05 03:05 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: BaguaMonk]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
How can you fight exactly the way its done it the form? Are we talking about Yip Man wing chun?
Most Forms in Kung fu are application based, WC isnt. You have ideas, then you add them together to make what you need.
Yes Yip man's stance is ODD! LOL it took me 4 months to start to be able to fight with it.

Yes WC has 1 punch in total.

My Sigung (not leung ting) feals that you can answer every (fighting) problem from our theory (the forms). This coming from someone who
1 was a private diciple
2 participated in many school fights in HK (mostly against Choy lay fut ),
3 has allways said to picks fights in bars to test your skill (Many many good storys!)
4. has had a running challenge for anyone who questions his style to come and test it (until his retirement in 2000 )

The people who created these martial arts were very good fighters. Its allways best to adapt with what every you can master. Most schools are BS.. its just the nature of the beast.

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#148445 - 06/01/05 08:43 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
coxne Offline
Member

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 419
Loc: Ohio, USA
Quote:

How can you fight exactly the way its done it the form?


You can't. take part of the form, and apply it to suit your needs.

Quote:

My Sigung (not leung ting) feals that you can answer every (fighting) problem from our theory (the forms). This coming from someone who
1 was a private diciple
2 participated in many school fights in HK (mostly against Choy lay fut ),
3 has allways said to picks fights in bars to test your skill (Many many good storys!)
4. has had a running challenge for anyone who questions his style to come and test it (until his retirement in 2000 )





So your teacher was a bully, picking fights just to fuel his ego? Besides, how does this have to do with grappling any longer? If you want to fight on the ground, practice ground fightings. Take ju-jitsu, greco roman, or adapt your wc to fight on the ground. Stand up is not the end all be all way to fight. Neither is ground. To be a well rounded fighter, you need them both.

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#148446 - 06/01/05 10:47 AM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
monji112000 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 177
You can't. take part of the form, and apply it to suit your needs.

You can't take part of the form and apply it. Well you can do anything.. but thats not what he had in mind. Each movement is a idea, you must combine the ideas to make a technique. examples: turning your horse+Tan+punch or Gan+tan+triangle step.

So your teacher was a bully, picking fights just to fuel his ego?

No it was always suggested that this is the ONLY WAY TO TEST YOUR SKILL(in real environment). Even In HK this was the best way to see if you could handle a "STREET" fight. EGO is something any Kung Fu school teaches to discard.

Stand up is not the end all be all way to fight. Neither is ground. To be a well rounded fighter, you need them both.

AGAIN YOU ARE STATING THE OBVOISE The point was to talk about how people cross train and adapt. What techniques have you found to work in X position on the ground. What points from XYZ style did you see that help in DFG position ECT..

LOL

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#148447 - 06/17/05 09:12 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: monji112000]
Leapordsknowbest Offline
Member

Registered: 11/24/04
Posts: 100
Loc: Nashville,Tenneessee
Well guys, I belive it is the advantage vers advantage in this one. Your not good on ground they get you on ground not good. You good standing they cant get you on ground they in trouble. I work on not gettin put on the ground in first place.(counter throwing,tackles, and sweeps)

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#148448 - 06/18/05 04:30 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: coxne]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I'd take slight issue with an earlier comment that ground-fighting is a japanese speciality. I was training TKD in Finland for a while and they included wrestling on their syllabus as many street fighters were wrestlers (free-style and greco-roman) and this was before UFC. The other thing was that in a cold country it's possible to slip on the icy ground and find yourself on your back. Therefore if you do WC in the winter, it might be a pertinant question about ground techniques.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#148449 - 06/18/05 08:14 PM Re: Wing Chun and Ground fighting [Re: trevek]
madmattg Offline
Member

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
I studied WC for 6 1/2 years as for ground fighting we did cover it and did seminars in it where I was learning.

However, have you ever watched Grandmaster William Cheung get attacked in at a seminar by a Wing Tzun Student.

He got attacked to the ground, and it was very sad to see he was getting his a$$ handed to him.
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