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#147960 - 05/23/05 02:26 AM scisssor block
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
has anyone used the scissor block like at the beginning of heian nidan in a real situation to break some ones elbow, i like the move just wondering if anyone has experience using it in a real situation or even sparring?

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#147961 - 05/23/05 04:45 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
scissor block?

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#147962 - 05/23/05 12:15 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: SANCHIN31]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
scissor block maby known by a different name is when in left foot forward stance your left hand comes from your right hip to inside to outside block should finish elbow at right angle straight infront of you , your right hand comes from your right hip into a high block but faces the right side, both these blocks happen at the same time, this is not the block but it is from this position that you do it , simultaneously now your left hand comes into your right shoulder to trap the forarm and the right arm goes from high block to outside to inside block smashing the trapped arm just above the elbow , elbow should break hope this explains it a little better thanks

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#147963 - 05/23/05 06:41 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
BaguaMonk Offline
Member

Registered: 12/18/04
Posts: 404
Loc: DALLAS TX BABY
Are you by any chance talking about the "down block" the one that is chambered by the two arms crossing, and then the arm on top swings down and towards the same leg? I think one of the applicasions is to break someone's arm, or elbow.

If that is what you are talking about, no I don't see much practical use for it. The chamber itself helps though, from the initial crossed arm chamber, you can grab striking arm with both hands and pull them in as you break the arm or apply a chin na.
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#147964 - 05/23/05 09:19 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: BaguaMonk]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
If you are talking about the down block it is not possible to break someone's arm in that manner. Striking down on the back of the arm will not break it.
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#147965 - 05/23/05 09:19 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Kibadachi,

Funny I never thought of that movement as a scissors block, but I can see why the term is being used.

On the whole I don't see it as a arm break potential, though I can show how moving from the first block to the one on the second side could be used to break arms.

As for breaking arms I don't ever recall anyone intentionally breaking anyones arm in training. That the bone directly behind the elbow is thinner and is the likely fracture point is a medical reality, but almost everyone teaches techniques that could fracture the arm with great control and focus, not to have training accidents occur.

In fact one of Aikido's locks, most commonly referred to as the 'Go-kyu' is actually one of the simplest and in turn normally taught much later than sooner. Simply because inappropriate use could fracture a partners arm, and beginners would find it to dangerous, IMVHO, to learn, lacking control.

But the range of fractal analysis of the Heian NiDan (or originally Pinan ShoDan) crossing strike, your scissors, has a wide range of possiblities.

In sparring, point sparring, as points are not given for arm strikes, it is something rarely used, where in real life where somebody reaches out to grab you, it is a very viable technique to parry and strike into the arm, creating an opening for various followups.
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#147966 - 05/23/05 09:35 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: Victor Smith]
Strider_Hanzo Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Norwalk, CA 90650
An interesting thing about the down block i learned in my Dan Zan Ryu Jujitsu class. One of their first grabs does indeed take the form of the down block. Le me explain further.... The technique basically is to get out of a headlock. This would be if the opponent is grabbing you with his left arm wrapped around your neck and his right arm securing the hold to the left. First you do a Judo knuckle and smash and keep smashing into the opponent’s knuckle of his right hand. When he loosens up use your chin to press down on the left arm towards your chest as you slide out of the position. From there you would use your right hand to place it on the opponent's belt, or pants if he isn't wearing a belt. As you go back into a standing position, bringing his left arm along with you, you use your left arm and grab by the wrist. Now you're holding his left wrist with your left hand and the back of his belt with your right. From there you perform the first step of chambering the down block which is pulling your left arm towards your right shoulder and pushing down with your right hand. If your right hand's knuckles pushes down on his lowest vertebrae as you pull up with your left hand the opponent should drop to his knees. I'd say that's pretty nifty coming from a down block.
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#147967 - 05/23/05 10:50 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
in heian nidan the follow up is a left hammerfist to the head,
no i'm not talking about down blocks, the set position is with the left arm in inside block (the block that has the fist coming from the opposite hip across in front of you ) and the right arm is in high block position but to the side facing your right side and closer to your head now if someone to the front of you punches with the old 1-2 combination your left arm blocks his right jab and when he punches you with his left your left arm guides his punch toward your right shoulde and traps it while your right arm comes down with an outside block(from with your elbow pointing to the right ) to down infront of you but have your arm land behind his elbow breaking it, no down blocks guys

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#147968 - 05/24/05 12:48 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Hitting behind the elbow WILL NOT BREAK IT.

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#147969 - 05/24/05 01:39 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: SANCHIN31]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
why wouldn't it, it's hyperextending it and isn't breaking just hyperextending the joint with more pressure?

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#147970 - 05/24/05 01:48 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
There are ways to hyperextend the elbow,hitting behind it isn't one of them. Have one of your buddies hit you there while you resist. No reaction. You have to knead or rub there to release the elbow,but that won't break it either.


Edited by SANCHIN31 (05/24/05 02:38 AM)
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#147971 - 05/24/05 02:09 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Nope. You won't break it that way. It's a hinged joint. You can't break a hinged joint by simplying "hyperextending it by applying more pressure".

Besides, why use force when you can use simple technique?

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#147972 - 05/24/05 10:18 AM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
kibadachi1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 74
Loc: coble
so how do you break the elbow then, and is this technique in heian nidan no good then?

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#147973 - 05/24/05 10:37 PM Re: scisssor block [Re: kibadachi1]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
How to break the elbow? Surely you don't expect me (or anyone here) to tell you that on a public forum???

How do you get a door of its hinges? Pull out your anatomy books and work it out.

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