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#147187 - 06/30/05 10:06 PM Re: Fencing and Kendo [Re: Strider_Hanzo]
Warwolph Offline
Member

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 160
I just go for it in epee, there's nothing worse than standing there all the time and nothing happening. I feel empty at the end of a bout like that, so I just try and force mistakes, might lose a couple of points, but I don't care. At least it feels like i've actually been fighting and not just idly standing there.

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#147188 - 07/11/05 01:06 AM Cuts from the wrist are effective and historical [Re: cxt]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Cxt,

I fence saber and the "old school" moulinets, a cut needed for effective use of a real saber in real combat, have pretty much disappered.
They are not needed for Olympic style competition.

The fingers and to a lesser extent the wrist do much of the work now.
And they allow bladework that would be nearly impossible with anything other than a "competition blade."


I certainly have nothing against moulinets/molinelli from the elbow, but it should still be pointed out that effective cuts can indeed be launched from the wrist. This was the preferred method of cutting in 16th/17th century rapier fencing, and it was even used judiciously in 18th century Anglo-Scottish broadsword & backsword-play. Several period fencing masters mention this.

FWIW.

Peace,

A_M_P
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#147189 - 07/11/05 01:29 AM On sword types [Re: hedkikr]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

My 2nd post (reposte, get it?) -sp.?

Does anybody know what they're talking about???? First of all, a sabre & rapier are 2 different weapons:

The sabre is a curved, single bladed weapon usually associated w/ the cavalry because of the slicing action utilized in fighting (could you imagine trying to thrust on horse-back?).




While most historical sabers have some degree of curvature, not all weapons of this type are curved. Aside from the modern sports saber, several latter-day military (cavalry) sabers were straight-bladed, like the Spanish Puerto Seguro of 1907:

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/Image2.jpg

The British 1908 Pattern:

http://www.diggerhistory.info/images/swords/13alhr.jpg

and the M1913 Saber designed by Lt. George S. Patton:

http://i9.ebayimg.com/02/i/04/04/66/5d_1_b.JPG

Note that while these weapons could be used for cutting, they were optimized for thrusting.

Quote:

A rapier is a strait, double-edged weapon w/ a sharp point used for cutting & thrusting.




Agreed.

Quote:

The Sabre is usually shorter & heavier than the Rapier.




Shorter? Yes.

Heavier? No.

Quote:

So the most likely weapon in this fantasy duel would be Katana vs. Sabre. (my vote still goes w/ katana)




Why do you feel that way?

Just Curious,

A_M_P


Edited by Armed_Man_Piker (07/11/05 01:36 AM)

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#147190 - 07/11/05 01:50 AM On the foil's utility [Re: Subedei]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
S,

Quote:

What's wrong with foil? Oh..I don't know...It's completely incapable of causing injury? It's physical properties distort the physical reality of real swordfighting?




You're ignoring the obvious fact that the foil itself is a practice weapon, and thus it is not designed to "cause injury" in the first place. That's why the Italians called it the spada d'exercizio.

However, you should also note that the Italian foil is very close in form to the Italian duelling sword, which is indeed needle sharp and thus capable of killing.

Likewise, foil technique in general (Italian or French), can indeed translate well to actual, functional swords--smallswords, spadroons, sabers, etc.

As for your claim that the foil's "physical properties distort the physical reality of real swordfighting", that only applies to the foil's flexibility and the corresponding use of silly, bastardized moves like the modern "flick attack". It certainly doesn't apply to the foil's light weight--and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't actually handled a real smallsword or duelling epee.

Peace,

A_M_P
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#147191 - 07/11/05 01:58 AM Re: Fencing and Kendo [Re: tao_majick]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

hey guys, I'm just doin' a survey. I was woundering what school of swordsmanship would you rather practice? European Fencing or Kendo? Both arts have their strong points, but just for the record, I perfer Kendo!




I prefer Western fencing, partially because I have a background in it, and also because I feel that it is arguably less diluted that kendo. I suspect that modern foil & epee fencing is closer to the actual use of the smallsword & duelling epee, than kendo is to functional kenjutsu.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#147192 - 07/24/05 03:12 PM Re: Fencing and Kendo [Re: tao_majick]
PinoyKendoka Offline
Stranger

Registered: 07/23/05
Posts: 1
I would prefer Kendo

And for some fencers who dont know much about kendo here, kendo is somewhat almost related to kenjutsu. Kendo has more target areas that fencing does which is the wrists, the head, and the sides, and thrusting to the neck. In kendo, the shinai is not the only weapon used, but a weapon called the "Bokken" is used and it is shaped exactly as a katana. You can actually cut a arm or a head off with a booken if you tried really hard. Also, kendo has more dimentions, instead of just fighting in a line you have more space. Kendo was also knows for speed, technique, and skill too, and kendo bogu(armor) was more durable and stronger than fencing armor. Kendo has slashes, blocks, chops, slices, and thrusts to the neck which can be dangerous. The katana i think was used when kendo was first invented many years ago in japan but caused deaths and serious injuries. The katana s made sharp, or sharper than any western sword. I have seen some videos and documentarys of someone shooting a pistol at a katana, and the katana ends up slicing the bullets in half. In kendo, you also have to be really agressive, and you use loud shouts during fights and there is also lots of strength and cunning speed added.

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#147193 - 07/28/05 09:46 PM Re: Fencing and Kendo [Re: PinoyKendoka]
Armed_Man_Piker Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 440
Loc: East Coast U.S.A.
Quote:

I would prefer Kendo

And for some fencers who dont know much about kendo here, kendo is somewhat almost related to kenjutsu. Kendo has more target areas that fencing does which is the wrists, the head, and the sides, and thrusting to the neck.




And I guess you're a kendoka who doesn't know much about fencing.

You claim that kendo "has more target areas" than fencing, but that clearly isn't the case.

In foil fencing the target is the entire torso, from the crotch to the shoulders.

In saber, the target is everything from the waist up.

In epee, the target is the entire body.

Quote:

In kendo, the shinai is not the only weapon used, but a weapon called the "Bokken" is used and it is shaped exactly as a katana. You can actually cut a arm or a head off with a booken if you tried really hard.




A bokken can cause lethal injuries through "blunt trauma", but it's not going to cut anything...

Quote:

Also, kendo has more dimentions, instead of just fighting in a line you have more space.




"More dimensions"?

Modern Western fencing is predominantly linear due to the emphasis on straight thrusts, as well as the lightness of the weapons themselves.

Quote:

Kendo was also knows for speed, technique, and skill too, and kendo bogu(armor) was more durable and stronger than fencing armor.




Kendo armor is NOT "stronger" than fencing armor; look at the Dog Brothers Real Contact Stickfighting group, and you'll note that they use Western fencing 3-Weapon masks. Why? Because they are rigid. Kendo masks have a strong metal face grill (like WEKAF stickfighting masks), but they have no real protection on the top and sides--it's just heavy cloth. If one was to attempt stickfighting with heavy rattan sticks using kendo masks (a very bad idea), there would be many folks suffering knockouts and other injuries. Western fencing masks have a solid frame. WEKAF masks have high impact foam. Kendo masks have neither of these.

Quote:

The katana s made sharp, or sharper than any western sword.




More BS.

Look up English accounts of the Jacobite Rebellions, and you'll find plenty of instances of basket-hilted broadswords and backswords used to decapitate bodies and sever limbs.

Or look at the examinations of the Grave Pit at the site of the Battle of Visbey--plenty of severed bones and the like.

The Japanese do not have a monopoly on sharp swords.
_________________________
And the rapier blades, being so narrow and of so small substance, and made of a very hard temper to fight in private frays... do presently break and so become unprofitable. --Sir John Smythe, 1590

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#147194 - 07/29/05 05:38 PM Re: Fencing and Kendo [Re: Armed_Man_Piker]
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3400
Loc: MiddleEarth
keep the discussion under control, please refrain from calling each other names or I will lock or delete this thread

thankyou
_________________________
Allow me to acquaint you with my friends Mr Jab and Mr Cross...

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