I may just have stumbled across the source of the oft quoted statistic about (varying) percentages of fights ending up on the ground.

The topic came up on rec.martial-arts, and a chap called Kirk Lawson cited this article;

[QUOTE]
"The LAPD's Reality Check"
Los Angeles Times Magazine (12/13/98) P. 22; Cray, Dan

Greg Dossey of the Los Angeles Police Department is revolutionizing law enforcement confrontation techniques, starting with his troubled hometown force.

Dossey bases his new training program on the findings from his University of Southern California Doctoral thesis, which found that a substantial number of arrests that involved force could have been prevented or handled better if the officers had been more well-trained.

His approach differs from traditional police confrontation training in the way officers are taught to maintain control of the situation. The most striking finding Dossey uncovered was that two-thirds [actually 62% in the original report apparently] of all altercations with suspects take place with both parties on the ground, a contingency for which the LAPD was all but unprepared.

Other tactics, such as placing a "firm grip" on the suspect's arm, tended to engender fights that otherwise might not have taken place. Dossey has replaced these old-fashioned methods with a combination of prevention, teamwork, and martial arts training, and all LAPD officers are now required to undergo Dossey's 40-hour training course and be re-certified every 18 months.

The program seems to be producing results: since its introduction last year, less than 1 percent of arrests have involved force--compared to the previous six-year average of 1.7 percent--injury rates fell 19 percent, and brutality rates dropped 13 percent.

Some groups are still skeptical, considering the LAPD's reputation, but others have faith.
In addition to continued support from the LAPD leadership, Dossey has been recruited to put on his training seminars for 65 police departments, the FBI, the DEA, and the Navy Seals.
[/QUOTE]

We've discussed the stat arising from a study of LEO attempting to restrain suspects before on this forum, but as far as I know, this is the first time I've seen the actual study referenced directly.

charles mckey


how many fights you had? How many of them went ot the ground?

A cop is different, they must restrain! My mother works in this environment and to taught anything othe rthan restraint is daft. You dont teach someone Boxing to restrain do you?

See my point, all the fights I have seen and the ones i have been in I would say mostly all started standing and most of them ended still standing with one of the party holding their head or not moving at all, on occasion I myself have been punched to the ground but immediately I get up again because I know thats not where I wanna be, you do not want to fight on the ground so get that out of your head! Honestly you dont unless you are fighting in NHB or UFC.

The only time a street fight goes to the ground is when there are multiple dickwabs then in that case you try and run!

In the security forces you need to learn restraint not offense. They start out by aresting an individual take him to the ground or a wall to "restrain" him, then he fights back, what he is saying is that the officers are not trained to fight back when the offender starts to fight back he is not saying all street fights go to the ground. End of story.



[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 11-07-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
how many fights you had? How many of them went ot the ground?[/QUOTE]
Since I was a kid, and outside of sparring? As I've said before in other threads, none, and I hope to keep it that way, thanks v. much!
[QUOTE]
A cop is different, they must restrain! My mother works in this environment and to taught anything othe rthan restraint is daft. You dont teach someone Boxing to restrain do you?
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I'm not making a point about "real" fights ending up on the ground at all here, and I do appreciate that a confrontation in which one of the parties' aims is restraint *is* going to turn out differently. (That's [my view] documented in the last thread where this was discussed, in which I could only find a second-hand source which didn't cite the original study). I should maybe have stated that at the outset.

My reasons for posting;
1) This stat gets bandied around a lot, and it's often unclear where it comes from.
2) Previous cites (regarding the source) have been at at least two steps away from the original, with "if I recall correctly" or similar appended, and some vagueness about the original figures and context in which they were obtained.

For me, I still think I should learn groundwork, partly because it doesn't hurt to have something extra in the bag of tricks, partly (alright, largely) because I think it's fun, and partly because I might just need it (even if only to recognise what someone else is trying to do, or escape from a situation where I do end up on the ground).

I promise I'll try to stay on my feet if anyone does have a go at me though, honest [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 11-07-2003).]

POlice are more often required to restrain their suspect using the minimum ammount of force possible. The most effective way to do this is probably via submission/ground fighting tactics. This is probably why the stats read the way they do.
I'd also say that a majority of fights in general end up on the ground because people do not know how to properly apply technique; they usually just end up 'scrapping'. I'm sure you have seen it before - it starts with pushing each other and then becomes a contest of force against force.
What are your ideas for keeping this from happening?
Regards,
Chris

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
I'd also say that a majority of fights in general end up on the ground because people do not know how to properly apply technique; they usually just end up 'scrapping'.
[/QUOTE]
It depends on who you talk to - knowledgable people on this forum would tend to disagree with you. I can see that a "real" fight could go to the ground if one party is knocked down (if you take mount, you don't have to be Muhammad Ali in terms of striking to decide the fight).

[QUOTE]
I'm sure you have seen it before - it starts with pushing each other and then becomes a contest of force against force.
What are your ideas for keeping this from happening?
[/QUOTE]
The shoves I've seen done (which don't always escalate into fights) are usually pretty obvious (telegraphed), I guess, speaking hypothetically, I'd attempt to slip/dodge them, whilst trying a bit of verbal de-escalation. In large part it depends what's gone before - if I really think chummy is going to hit me, my response could well be different. Similarly, if he has a large huddle of friends egging him on, I might concentrate more on cooling things down, or making a run for it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

On the other hand, one of my coaches has said that essentially, if someone touches you aggressively (shoves, for example), or passes your "fence" (in the sense of a "passive" open handed guard) the decision is made, and you better use force before your assailant does...

As I said earlier, my POV isn't grounded in first hand experience, so someone like Mr.V or Muay Thai will give you a better answer, I'm sure.

[This message has been edited by charles mckey (edited 11-07-2003).]

CM
My thought was that a majority of the population does NOT have martial training of any sort, thus they end up scrapping. However, the situation will greatly differ if the combatants have even a drop of skill/training.
Idea being; there is no way to predict human reation, only prepare.

...As I said earlier, my POV isn't grounded in first hand experience, so someone like Mr.V or Muay Thai will give you a better answer, I'm sure...

Dude I wont, I am a beginner also, I have few fights under my belt and the few real fights (I aint gonna start counting) I have had have been just that, FEW! I am simply trying to point out the many myths regarding real fighting and the belief that UFC is just that. Most of my posts and claims can all be backed up, proven to be quite true but that doesnt mean that I am the expert, I wish that I truely was an expert, maybe some day i will be.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 11-07-2003).]

I work reatil loss prevention.I have apprehended over 600 shoplifters. A small percentage of these have required me to handcuff them. In these situations it is always better to take them to the ground.The legs are the source of power and most people have no ideal what to do on the ground,therefore you put them on ground so they are controlable.
Outside of work, the few fights I have witnessed, all went to ground at one point or another.The reason for this was the intoxication level or lack of skill in one or more of the participants.I have never witnessed a fight where one of the participants had any skill.I am sure if you are a trained striker,you will stand and strike and if you are a trained grappler(high school,college wrestler)you will try to take someone down.

As for avoiding the shoving match leading to a fight, walk away-avoid obnoxious idiots.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fisherman:
I'm sure you have seen it before - it starts with pushing each other and then becomes a contest of force against force.
What are your ideas for keeping this from happening?
Regards,
Chris[/QUOTE]

My response would be to use their "push" against them...they push me I'm pulling them. A saying used in Judo: "If your opponent comes, invite him, if he goes, send him on his way." If he pushes it becomes a very one-sided Judo match...ippon for me.

If you don't know an art that uses this principle, use what you know.

Actually, I guess I should mention that my first responsibility would be to avoid the altercation to begin with.

Also, I would just like to mention, depending on the situation, grappling on the ground is not so dangerous. If it's a one on one fight, which many I have witnessed are, going to the ground may be safer...if your opponent is not skilled on the ground and you are, you could end the fight on the ground in no time. On the other hand...if you are in unfamiliar territory or outnumbered, do your best to avoid the ground. You have to do what the situation calls for.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by immrtldragon:
Also, I would just like to mention, depending on the situation, grappling on the ground is not so dangerous....

If it's a one on one fight, which many I have witnessed are, going to the ground may be safer...if your opponent is not skilled on the ground and you are, you could end the fight on the ground in no time. On the other hand...[/QUOTE]

Ok picture this, in reality you are asked to use your fighting ability to defend or even throw first attack, what are you gonna do?
Are you gonna take him to the ground? Think about it, what would you do? going for a takedown or trying to get in for a throw may take a few moments in which you could very well be lying on your back with some nutcase on top of you trying to kill you! So what will you do? I would punch like a mofo and try to get in so as to use knees and elbows, why? because its the hardest part of the body and I know from experience they work on the street, also they are easy to do and per square inch packs the most power, If he then seems to be able to defend against such attacks then more or likely you will end up clinching, this is where grappling techniques come handy, next you throw a barage of knees, side knees cos you're in the clinch, and try to throw the guy on his shoulders or side of the neck. If he is down and not getting up in a hurry I will leave it at that....

...I got floored in a bar in Australia over a game of pool, if it wasnt for the 2 other guys who were with me I would have been beaten to a pulp, I was on the ground and woke up to see my 2 drinking partners holding some fellas by the throat, I was knocked out! totally dazed I left the bar came to and then realised what had happend so went back into the bar in front of them all went up to guy who floored me grabbed him by the hair, as it was long, and tried to knee his head, I connected a few times and not once did this fight go to the ground apart from me waking up from the first initial punch, I found myself on the pavement again only this time so did he as the doormen threw us out, I know I caused a bit of a stir in the guys nerves as he quickly disapeared with a shock look in his face. The thing is when you use knees you can just about feel the connection between your knees and the person you are hitting, so that makes you subconsciously hit harder to the point it quickly knocks them out... take my word for it! knees are the best weapon along with elbows in any self defence situation.

---------------------------------------------
quoted :

"...if your opponent is not skilled on the ground and you are, you could end the fight on the ground in no time..."

I hate to sound patronising but the ground really is the last place you ever want to be in a street fight. It is the last resort, even if you are a grappler you do not want to go to the ground unless you are wanting to restrain him until police arrive but if its beating him up that is important you are better doing that while standing face to face. The ground in a street fight needs to be the worst place you can find yourself and not promnoted as one of the places you want to take the fight. Learn how to hit first, if its pure self defence you want, if its fighting you want to learn and fighting for the street then learn Boxing or Thai Boxing (I dont mean Thai boxing simply because I do it, thats silly to think that) These are wo very practical and easy systems of fighting that you can learn and within only 3 months you will be able to comfortably defend youself in most street fights you will find yourself in, I know how to get out of a ground clinch and get back up, I know how to handle myself in a standing clinch but I dont know how to ground grapple but I can tell you now that I have not been beaten in any of my encounters! Knocked out yes but technically i got my own back. You do not need to know how to grapple on the ground in order to fully defend yourself in a street attack, knowing how to grapple is not a disadvantage nor is NOT knowing how to grapple.

You must remember, it is YOU who is fighting, if you have chosen the correct techniques to use in a fight, which are to be honest the quick, easy and effective shots aiming for a KO, then all you need is the "balls", I remember the first ever time I got hit outside, I backed off, I let him hit me around for a while as I was amazed that i just got hit! that happens and unless you have experienced being in a fight expect to loose complete control of yourself as that also happens and there is nothing you can do except be prepared for it, you must not let this fear beat you cos thats why so many who do study martial arts get beaten up, they think cos they study MA's so then they must be good fighters... wrong, their art is only a part of what makes them a fighter the rest is the individual. Train to fight if thats what you intend to do with your MA's, spar in a fight simulated training routine, even compete in a local promoted fight... but the most important thing is (damn its actually ironic to think I am sounding like Jkogas [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]) to fight, if you wan to be able to fight youmust fight there is no easy way to knowing how. If its self confidence and fitness that you want out of your MA or for any other reason other than fighting then dont waste your time with the rigorous training that you will NEED to do in order to be a good fighter.


Going to the ground in UFC events is different cos you are going for a submission! in reality there are no submissions and the fact that you know its reality means that your attacker will be hyped up like a crazed bull, in the ring when you feel you are getting beat you have the luxery of subconciously knowing that it will be over in a minute and you can go home, on the street however that luxury doesnt exist so the will to survive will be a lot stronger... dont get me wrong, of course a UFC fighter, or any ring fighter for that matter will do well in a street encounter but are we all competing fighters here? probably not an I am sure most of you are asking yourself "would I do well if I got attacked" mate simply ask your instructer to hold small competitive fight nights in the dojo, it doesnt need to be NHB or Muay Thai style, any fight where its not sparring is good to gain experience of the "adrenilan dump" the guy describes in the previous post. Just ask, it does wonders for your ability as a fighter.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 11-07-2003).]