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#146626 - 05/19/05 07:27 PM The dreaded "chamber"
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
When bashing karate is the issue the chamber is always brought up. Usually referring to "punching from the hip".
As many of us already know someone that says that has had poor instruction. So what can the chamber be for?
1) elbow to ribs
2) two way action, push/pull
3) grappling, holding opponent in position for strikes or locks

Now we have dispelled the myth that chambering is only traditional and has no self defense applications.
You may add your uses of the chamber or likes/dislikes.
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#146627 - 05/19/05 09:00 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
how do you elbow to the ribs if your fist is by your armpit?
2 way action, ok....i can see pushing but pulling you would have to reach out first
-do you mean standup grappling? If you hold someone in position for a strike or a lock than they can hold you too. I would say you probably hafto hit someone at least once first to control them.

I think the chamber is kinda a good idea but there are several ways it puts you in a mess that its better not to do it. One thing is you can get jammed on your chamber arm and have it trapped to your body. My instrustor likes to parry the front arm and punch the chamber arm shoulder and I guarantee you you will not chamber after that. ALso, when I took karate. No one chambers when you spar. The second highest rank there, when he sparred punched from about half extension. Basically just had his hands like a boxer. He had more power and more speed than everyone there. I think that says something. Also, many boxers have a lot more power in their punches than the average karate guy and they dont chamber.

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#146628 - 05/19/05 09:16 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
First of all you have no idea what you're talking about junior.

Quote:

how do you elbow to the ribs if your fist is by your armpit?




opponent is behind you/bearhug etc..


Quote:

2 way action, ok....i can see pushing but pulling you would have to reach out first




Not if he grabs you or makes a motion toward you with his hand(s).


Quote:

-do you mean standup grappling? If you hold someone in position for a strike or a lock than they can hold you too. I would say you probably hafto hit someone at least once first to control them.




They can't be holding you in such a vulnerable position. You do not have to strike first. It could be stand up or otherwise.



Quote:

I think the chamber is kinda a good idea but there are several ways it puts you in a mess that its better not to do it.





It's a good idea that's better not to do?

Quote:

One thing is you can get jammed on your chamber arm and have it trapped to your body.




You don't have it on your body except for trapping.You won't be jammed.


Quote:

My instrustor likes to parry the front arm and punch the chamber arm shoulder and I guarantee you you will not chamber after that.




I gurantee you that you need to train more on this and you will see.


Quote:

ALso, when I took karate. No one chambers when you spar. The second highest rank there, when he sparred punched from about half extension. Basically just had his hands like a boxer. He had more power and more speed than everyone there. I think that says something.




You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about.


Quote:

Also, many boxers have a lot more power in their punches than the average karate guy and they dont chamber.




That's a generalized ignorant statement.I've fought with boxers who would tell you otherwise.Boxers are in the ring boxing with gloves on. Why would they chamber?
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#146629 - 05/19/05 09:46 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
kenposan Offline
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Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Chambering as related to punching is the most base level of understanding. Actually, IMHO, chambering has nothing to do with actually punching. The act of chambering only looks that way.

Follow this link to a wonderful article that explains the concept of chambering far better than I could:

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=317
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#146630 - 05/19/05 11:53 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
Im glad you said first of all I dont know im talking about. That really cleared things up. I bet you i could put you in a rear bear hug and have you try to throw that elbow from your chamber and you would not be able to move at all.
"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."
I dont think he is, but I think you will. I dont think in a street situation it is necessarily easier to hit someone, actually it will be much harder for you to apply your techniques against someone who doesnt fight in the side stances and move the same way.

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#146631 - 05/20/05 12:08 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
Alejandro Offline
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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Quote:

I dont think he is, but I think you will. I dont think in a street situation it is necessarily easier to hit someone, actually it will be much harder for you to apply your techniques against someone who doesnt fight in the side stances and move the same way.




If you practice point sparring oriented techniques, and training to develop those, then it will be harder. But if you practice true okinawan self preservation karate, street situations are what the techniques are designed for. Many modern karate-ka fail on the street because they are practicing watered down tournament karate. They practice a karate that has shifted from its original intent, with its training methods changed to fit that shift, so their karate fails in the situation it was originally designed for!

I have a feeling that your experience in karate was a sport or sparring based one, not self preservation. Two entirely different ball games! If sparring and "fighting in side stances" was your karate experience, then suspect it was sport based. Old school karate is not facing off and dueling. I don't hold your opinion against you, as you base it on your experience; who doesn't? But don't be to quick to make general conclusions based on your own comparitively limited experience, when there are others here who's experience is drastically different..
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#146632 - 05/20/05 12:31 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Alejandro]
Stampede Offline
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
I like the chambering motion from in the clinch; let's me move arms I don't like out of my way.
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#146633 - 05/20/05 12:55 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Im glad you said first of all I dont know im talking about. That really cleared things up.




No problem. Happy to oblige.


Quote:

I bet you i could put you in a rear bear hug and have you try to throw that elbow from your chamber and you would not be able to move at all.




pffft....


"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."
Quote:

I dont think he is, but I think you will. I dont think in a street situation it is necessarily easier to hit someone, actually it will be much harder for you to apply your techniques against someone who doesnt fight in the side stances and move the same way.




You are the one who wrote it!!!You said you never saw anyone chamber when they were sparring. DUH DUR DEE! You obviously can't see the forest for all the trees. You still think punching comes from the hip in karate.
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#146634 - 05/20/05 02:50 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Dude (Petju84),
Not you again! Didn't I mention in another thread that the chamber is a practice and you don't have to punch from it. It will let you learn the technique, it is much deeper that you think for practice, but you don't have to do it this way for application.

I practice the chamber, but I always throw my punches from a face guard. Like a boxer. My current instructor has a teaching certificate for boxing in Japan. My other instructor was a former amateur boxer. One of the students in our dojo was a former Naval boxer. One of my Senpai was on the U.S. Boxing team that went to Calgary in the 80s. The point is, all of these guys are practicing karate. You have no conception of what you are saying when you say that all karate styles punch a certain way...or for that matter, why all these guys who have trained in boxing are practicing karate. You make blanket statements and consider your experience the only rational explanations for your failure in karate. Don't judge me or others by your own standards. Life doesn't work that way.

You have a peculiar knack of saying something is good or agreeing with it and then launching into why you dislike it or why karate is so bad.

Just stop it. Comment on technique and explain yourself in that regard. That I can take, but stop denegrating and putting down that which you do not know about.

Get a grip. If you don't like it...don't do it. You are not here to enlighten us all on how your youth and 5 years experience gives you the rational background to tell us how things should be done and what is the most beneficial for us.

-B

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#146635 - 05/20/05 02:59 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
He doesn't need a "cheel peel".

No more karate is bad BS period.


Edited by SANCHIN31 (05/20/05 03:11 AM)

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#146636 - 05/20/05 03:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS

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#146637 - 05/20/05 03:59 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS




Can you not comment on this yourself?
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#146638 - 05/20/05 06:04 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
For me the chamber means many things now, I used to be taught and trained that the elbow needs to be pulled 'right' back and tight to the body for power in your punch! I agree with the tight to the body bit.

I now practise with basics or kumite with the chamber hand resting softly against /or near my solar plexes, far more pratical. And can be seen in historic pictures of choki motobu, shoshin nagamine and many others. For kata training I follow the correct position, usually full hikite but am aware that I am doing 'something' with that hand/movement. the hikite position when using shuto uke gives the game away! ie resting on the solar plexes or near to.

I think the 'exagerated' chamber is taught to get people moving their hips as begineers as much as anything else, I also think that some instructors actually think that by pulling one arm back the other one goes forward faster - maybee it does maybee it doesnt.

But I know understand that very little is as it seems in karate and learning the application of karate is a far greater skill than just learning the moves, great stuff indeed!


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#146639 - 05/20/05 08:03 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
In my dojo, when performing basics we place a huge amount of importance on the chambering of the rear hand. Firstly because as already mentioned it encourages new students to fully utilize their hips when striking. However the deeper and more important reason for this is the two way action.

A simple analogy (that isn't partically pleasant so I hope I don't offend anyone) of why we do this is that of a car crash. When a moving car impacts against a stationary object it generates alot of energy, the energy from the car is transfered into the object. However, should a moving car impact another moving object then there is a hell of a lot more energy created on impact. In addition to the energy of the moving car, you also have the energy of the moving object which it collides with being brought into the equation which adds to the damge. By using the rear hand to pull an opponent towards us, we greatly add to the amount of energy (thus damage) created on impact. This is the reason why we place so much emphasis on the chambering of the rear hand.

Hope that made sense?

Gav
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#146640 - 05/20/05 08:43 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Gavin, respectfully of course, I disagree with the analogy. Your car example is correct, but I don't think pulling the opponent toward you will gain significant power due to the very low velocity of the opponents body (with respect to punch speed). The pulling while chamber application is for balance disorientation of your opponent and mai. Adjusting mai can increase/decrease power by a significant amount, certainly more than that added by collision speed of a body being pulled.

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#146641 - 05/20/05 08:54 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
whilst I see the benefits of 'pulling' the opponent towards you and striking, i think it is more pratical to stop them moving away from the strike.

pratically this is diffiuclt in my expieirence, i generally train the use of hikite is for pulling the opponent off balance and into locks, bars etc etc. to me it highlights that we have 2 hands and should use them!

It has many uses !

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#146642 - 05/20/05 09:12 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Kintama, I'm not sure I used that analogy in the correct context. When I teach it in the dojo it makes sense, and seems appropriate. In the blocks thread I gave an application for a head block or as we call it Jodan Uke. An attacker steps through with a straight right punch, the defender slides in and parrys using there left hand. With the left hand the defender grabs the attackers right wrist with the their left hand and pulls sharply into the left hip. At the same time they step in on the right foot and deliver a right jodan uke into the side of the attackers neck.

In this application I'm redirecting my opponents energy while adding velocity to it via the chambering of my left hand. My opponents velocity is now met with the force of my jodan uke moving into him.

I find that I can greatly add to an opponents momentum this way. Perhaps I getting concepts confused?

Gav
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#146643 - 05/20/05 09:33 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
oldman Offline
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#146644 - 05/20/05 09:39 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: oldman]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL, superb Oldman !

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#146645 - 05/20/05 09:41 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Chambering is highly critical to the way I use my art.

1. First the chamber position we use is the lower one, not the high chest chamber. The following answers would work (perhaps with modifications) for the high chamber, but it's not what I do.

2. A Chinese use of chambering is solely defensive, pulling the hand back to protect the lower from of the abdomen, highly vulnerable to a strike or a kick, so the chambering hand is to protect that area. Useful if you run into somebody who understand the vital point striking theories involved.

2. The act of chambering is reinforcing a grab and retract response, to draw the opponent towards you. The sharper you chamber in practice the more your grab and pull will have a shock effect.

3. The chambering hand is a Primary slashing offensive technique. It can rip into someone from angles they don't anticipate. Thus chambering is designed to take your oppoent apart.

4. The art of Chambering is a prime defensive technique to slash into someody sticking something out at your. You can find a Chinese 100% equivalent in the early Northern Eagle Claw 108 2 person locking set.

5. The chamber (lower) does create a great rear elbow strike, against bear hugs and somebody directly behind you. A great crack into the ribs or solar plexus to create an opening to take advantage of.

6. Chambering is not a solo act, it is almost always acompanied by other body technique, like simultaneous strike/blocks or punches. The full body application often describes multiple answers in the same movement.

With this the chambering as the other arm is performing something else is a very advanced body movement alignment technique to increase overall technique power. An example is how the correct use of chambering in Naifanchi Kata increases the power of the overall major technique taking place.

Poor Chambering equals less power and technique respoinsiblity.

Now there are ways to do all these things without chambering, but then you're not fully using kata potential and are taking another answer. But fully using kata potential allows you to utilize kata practice for energy management and development more fully.

Chambering, from my perspective, the only way I go.
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#146646 - 05/20/05 09:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
Gavin Offline
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Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
That's what I meant to say! Very very well put!
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#146647 - 05/20/05 09:47 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I agree with that for sure Victor, nicely put.

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#146648 - 05/20/05 09:52 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Moving the focus away from application of hikite to simple punching.

Does anyone pratcise the full hikite position (ie on hip) when practising kumite, ie landing a punch? If so for what reason?

I find that my hips know what they are doing and its far more pratical to have both hands infront of the body for offence and defense, and far quicker for multiple striking which is what my style advocates and I agree with!

The days of a relying on a single blow are gone and I no longer compete in semi contact so drop the use of it.

your thoughts appriciated.

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#146649 - 05/20/05 09:54 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
BuDoc Offline
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Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Wow. I wanted to comment on this, but I think that Oldman and Victor really summed it up.

I teach new students to chamber for many reasons. The easiest to explain is this: I want them to get use to having a pull back hand with something in it. When they start getting advanced they usualy find that pulling a hand back "chambered" really helps their tuite.

Page
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#146650 - 05/20/05 10:12 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
MattJ Offline
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I agree with Shoshinkan. Hip chamber is not necessary for power. Proper hip torque and body weight transfer will allow for serious striking power without the need to draw the hand back.
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#146651 - 05/20/05 10:22 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Does anyone pratcise the full hikite position (ie on hip) when practising kumite, ie landing a punch? If so for what reason?

If you're talking about striking during sparring, the primary purpose would be to show contempt for one's opponent, assuming you can move well enough to do so.

But funny aside (and I find that answer hysterical!) you're really talking about several different things. For defensive answers I don't consider a single punch a solid response, rather all of the body doing things at the same time, so the chambering/retracting hand is vital.

But you're case for sparring has merit, and there are advanced answers (not using the kata pardigm) that just explode to a technique(or technique series) conclusion and then chambering would not be involved.

This isn't better or worse than chambering, just a different answer.
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#146652 - 05/20/05 10:59 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
this thread is getting really interesting, well done all !

Thanks for your thoughts Victor, as always very interesting.

My reasoning behind looking at punching and hikite is that i beleive that full hikite should be taught in basics to begineers for the first year or so, then it should be dropped for sparring/partner work asit is unrealistic at best. it also opens your defense immesurably and also slows your 'flow' of technique. dont get me wrong if you grab in the kumite then use the hikite for what it is designed for!

however when practising kata it should be done as in the kata, this ensures the full movement is correct and allows good bunkai to be drawn from the kata.

for basics im on the fence, single techniques im ok with full hikite but combinations im not sure - remember I use the both hands front (one nr solar plexes) ready stance which by default gives hikite but not the full chamber.

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#146653 - 05/20/05 12:06 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Another thing to consider.

If you put your hands up in a short "boxers" stance, left leading right cocked back.
Pulling the right hand back it a "karate" chamber is not much distance at all.

This is relevent for two reasons.

1-Much classical karate was designed to work at very close ranges--esp the Goju/Uechi styles.
A high tight chamber allows more "room" as it were to really crank a hard punch in.

2-When things really get tense most people perform in less than ideal, "textbook" fashion.
In this situation most folks would tend to pull the chamber "short" which leaves the hands in "boxers" position.
Which is STILL a good place to fight from.

The hand that is out--drawing in as the other hand is being chambered and set works pretty well for parry/redirection of incoming strikes.

Just some food for thought.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 12:07 PM)
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#146654 - 05/20/05 12:22 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: cxt]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
cxt,

we think the same my friend, nice one

and its comforting to see older photos of okinawan karate in this position during kumite practise.

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#146655 - 05/20/05 02:09 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I agree with Shoshinkan and MattJ,
Don't have to have hand on hip. I also think that guards in front, especially around the face are necessary. Nothing like chambering and having an opponent take an angle to the strike and set up a punch to the unprotected side of the head.

-B

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#146656 - 05/20/05 02:26 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
Multiversed Offline
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Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Beyond the fighting aspects of chambering in kihon or kata training, the chamber is a structural exercise meant to strengthen, stretch and condition the tendons and muscles involved in punching. Here's an example: you have 2 pieces of rubber tubing of the same width or guage but of different lengths. You want to make a wrist-rocket (slingshot) out of one of these. You test the shorter one, and the distance you can pull it back is limited, due to its decreased flexibility (and length). It projects your stone a significant distance, but it lacks the velocity and distance you desire. The second piece of tubing is a bit longer. You notice that when you pull back on it. the length of the tubing is significantly increased. The stone is projected at a greater velocity travels quite a distance further.

Your arm which has tendons powered by gravity, momentum and muscle power serves to project your fist in a similar manner. This combined with relaxed power which enhances velocity, serves to make your strikes that much more powerful.

So beyond the typical responses know that from a biomechanical standpoint, chambering properly increases the length and strength of your sinews which in efect means greater punching power. BTW no real karate person ever chambers in the real world or even when free sparring. The stuff you see in karate tourneys is modified kendo kumite. It's not real karate sparring.

Also it's filipino or pilipino or even "pinoy" but never philippino. Sige na pare ko?!

I lived in the PI for 7 years, there is nothing that you know about silat that I don't know or haven't experienced first hand. The real fighters I knew in the Philippines usually knew panatukan/panajakman/dumog, JKD, Thai Boxing or Okinawan karate. Very few thought highly of or did silat, although some did Kuntaw mixed with some Silat. It's a very minor Muslim style of fighting. Nowadays MMAs can be added to that mix.

Go to the general MAs forum if you're here to put down karate. You should only comment on what you really know. Otherwise shut your trap and learn.

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#146657 - 05/20/05 02:34 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Multiverse,

For the karate stuff, totally agree with you on this take. For the Philipine MA and Indonesian MA, I have limited exposure and my ingornace is abundant.

-B

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#146658 - 05/20/05 02:42 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS




Can you not comment on this yourself?




I can, but I figure the mention of his name would remind you of the silliness of your position. I don't think I need to write a long speech on the neccesity of aliveness and applying your techniques in full contact sparring for them to be at all effective. You know the fallacy of "lethal techniques" that can never be sparred with and how that makes said techniques innefective. If you actually are that ignorant, do a search on "aliveness".

In fact, it seems a lot of karate people have the same problem as silatists. You have all these applications where you're grabbing the wrist, trapping the arm, etc. and striking with the other hand, but you make the "2 deadly 2 spar with" excuse and thus your bunkai never become effective for actual fighting.

Maybe it's because you fear things not looking like classical karate when the [censored] hits the fan.
Not my problem if you fear change.

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#146659 - 05/20/05 03:16 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
butterfly... can you tell me why kids don't listen today?

Multiverse:
Quote:


Also it's filipino or pilipino or even "pinoy" but never philippino. Sige na pare ko?!




butterfly:
Quote:

For the Philipine MA and Indonesian MA, I have limited exposure and my ingornace is abundant.





now go back and fix your post. If it's too late, then go to your room and no video games for 1 day.

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#146660 - 05/20/05 03:19 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Hedge

Sorry bro, "straw men", overly broad generaliztions, unfounded assumption and putting words into other folks mouths are simply not a good methods of arguementation.
Not if you wish to actually support your contentions anyway.

Maybe your problem is that your confusing the highly organized, rule driven, "lets all get streached out and all good and warmed up" competitive sparring with "real" attack?

Don't feel bad, made the same mistake myself when I was much younger and much more foolish.

Couple a guys, a length of pipe, a knife and an "assult with intent" helped me get over the notion that "sparring" and real life self-defense have much in common.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 03:22 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146661 - 05/20/05 03:24 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
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As far as Filipino, I meant Philipine as "Country of", like United States Boxing, not adjetival in the same sense as Filipino. I know, I srewed up on not keeping the same "texture" in my comments when using Indonesian. Oh well, sue me.

By the way, my Filipino friends corrected this out of me awhile back.:)

-B

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#146662 - 05/20/05 03:32 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: cxt]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Hedge

Sorry bro, "straw men", overly broad generaliztions, unfounded assumption and putting words into other folks mouths are simply not a good methods of arguementation.
Not if you wish to actually support your contentions anyway.

Maybe your problem is that your confusing the highly organized, rule driven, "lets all get streached out and all good and warmed up" competitive sparring with "real" attack?

Don't feel bad, made the same mistake myself when I was much younger and much more foolish.

Couple a guys, a length of pipe, a knife and an "assult with intent" helped me get over the notion that "sparring" and real life self-defense have much in common.




How else would you train? With compliant drills? With "scenarios"? That's not realistic.

Sparring may not be the same as THE STREET, but for actual fighting, it is the best method of training there is.

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#146663 - 05/20/05 03:48 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
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Hedge,

I agree with you mostly. Believe me when I say that I have encountered real sparring for standup in karate and I practice BJJ at another dojo (and in the karate studio that I go to since my instructor studied with the Machados).

However, I would say, don't confuse the "practice" of some of the things discussed about karate, with the application, which can be apparently different, but have a connection with muscle memory and gross body movement. This is the problem. The practice and the use. And by the way, I agree with you on a lot of the schmancy, fancy death touches or the secret killing techniques. You have to be able to produce usable techniques and these have to be seen in sparring practice, otherwise some practices become suspect. But don't discount all the training inherent in karate, because of poor examples you may have witnessed elsewhere. I also try to be open minded since I come from a more recent incarnation of karate heavily influenced by boxing and kickboxing.

The real problem, as you noted, is that there is a lot of crappy karate out there so you have to look through the fluff. And that is indeed hard.

Regards,
-B

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#146664 - 05/20/05 03:50 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Hedge

Actually its only one of many methods that are used to train.

The short version of my (and most serious MA) includes, drills, two-man drills/grappling/ etc, bagwork, strength training, endurence training (running, jumping rope etc) sparring, kata, etc.

Sparring is just a PART of the puzzle.

Consider this, look at pro boxers, do all they do is spar?

Course not, they shadowbox, train specific combos and drills--on the bag, in the air and with partners--who more or less ARE "complient" in that they know exactly what is being worked and exactly what they are to do.

I used to wrestle, (very light middle-weight) and a large part of the training consists of working specific "moves" with a partner that is "supposed" to do specific things.
Pretty much what you would call "complient" in that we both knew what we were working on, just how it was to be done and exactly how we were to do it.

Was it used in a "free" manner in competition? Sure, but that is sure NOT how it was trained or how the skill was developed or honed.

Just some stuff to consider.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 03:51 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146665 - 05/20/05 03:59 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: cxt]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
CXT,

Good, logical post. Positional changes in grappling for movement without submissions! Also, never saw a mugger come up to anyone and drop to the cement in a guard position, and say, "Give me your money!"

The problem as I and others noted is the poor showing most karate dojos give the general public. Therefore, everyone thinks that karateka jump forward and back and chamber huge reverse punches from the hip when in a deep zenkutsadachi.

And sorry, I know. Off topic.

-B

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#146666 - 05/20/05 04:13 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
Thats the problem. In the phillipines it is mainly Kali and those other arts. Indonesia is where silat is mainly from. I dont really care what the people you were exposed to thought. ABout half of my training group is phillipino and they did mainly stick arts and some of the empty hand stuff. They may not have had contact with some arts. One of my phillipino teachers was telling me about how many people never experienced the heritage of growing up with the true phillipino martial arts and instead got a lot of watered down stuff. Also, i dont need to tell me what someone thinks of silat. I have exposure to it and have seen it. Everyone in my group has done other arts. Karate is fine. One guy there did karate for 25 years, hapkido, some stick and tai chi. Another has done wing chun for 35 years, Bjj, JKD, and boxing. He ran his own boxing gym/ Wing chun school. Another has ninjitsu experience and shotokan for 10 years. I could go on. Dan Inosanto learned silat for awhile. I dont think he would if didnt like it because he only searches for what he considers the best stuff. The styles you listed down there looks like you copied off of the curriculum of a Paul Vunak website. In conclusion karate is fine but you are wrong in your argument.

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#146667 - 05/20/05 04:29 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
your telling me I fear change. THats funny. I sparred. Yep. If you dont think training with a partner works, then ......whatever. A guy with just 5 years of training in our group whipped up on a lot of shotokan black belts at a local school and he is a fat guy who just turned 42. Not to pick on shotokan but thats what he got from partner training. You have to train with a partner and as time goes on you apply the speed. Its like Bjj, you tap out before you break their arm you dont just go on with the techniques. There are some very dangerous things and you have to be careful. My instructor has a liablity waiver that says if you lose your life than he is not held liable because there are neck breaks and all kinds of stuff you do what you can. I guarantee you my instructor can apply the stuff and most of his training has been with a partner for the 65 years that he has learned. He has also fought kung fu guys, grapplers, a karate guy, muy thai..and so on. Whenever there is a seminar when he shows attendees a technique on them he tells them not to counter it. It is because his reactions are instant and the techniques are very dangerous. The guy in our group who does Bjj was once used to do a technique on the ground. He thought he knew a really easy way to counter it so he tried. My instructor dropped his elbows on his sternum and cranked his neck foreward and instantly broke his ribcage. No one tries to counter him because thats how it is. Ive heard the too deadly to spar thing a lot and I agree with it in many cases. But there are exceptions. Look at San Soo. A lot of it is partner training and if you have seen the stuff it is pretty effective. Its just not easy to do something without hurting someone when you do one sequence that is finishing the guy off. YOu dont want to kill him, you want to work with him again next time. The first sequence we learn "Pukulan 1" is where you slip the guys punch on the inside and throw a jab to the eyes which you also push the head backwards, that opens the throat up and you throw a quick leopard fist which in indonesian terms is "toya run" then you collapse is both elbows on his sternum and clinch the neck, there are about 8 finishes one which includes jumping with one leg in the air to get the momentum to slam his head on your kneeling knee on the ground. From there you elbow the occipital lobe and transition straight into a guillotine choke and break the neck in the same flow and then when he's on the ground you slap his face one side, fishook his mouth while resting your elbow point on the indention under his ear, then you can do more things but generally just finish by punching him right above the heart.

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#146668 - 05/20/05 04:44 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
cxt Offline
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Registered: 09/11/03
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Butterfly

Not off topic at all, part of the problem here (as I see it anyway) are the unfounded assumptions of what karate "is."
Karate is a pretty big box in terms of styles and technique.

And as you point out, what many people see and label "karate" are really pretty poor examples of it.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 06:20 PM)
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#146669 - 05/20/05 07:22 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
Hedgehogey Offline
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Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

is. Ive heard the too deadly to spar thing a lot and I agree with it in many cases. But there are exceptions. Look at San Soo. A lot of it is partner training and if you have seen the stuff it is pretty effective. Its just not easy to do something without hurting someone when you do one sequence that is finishing the guy off.





What the hell is "finishing the guy off"? Seriously, what technique are you doing? Are you frantically mashing buttons in hopes of a babality?

Compliant sequences don't help you learn to fight. We had this debate a decade ago, aliveness won. Get the plaque, eat the damn apple of knowledge, move on with your life.

Quote:

YOu dont want to kill him, you want to work with him again next time. The first sequence we learn "Pukulan 1" is where you slip the guys punch on the inside and throw a jab to the eyes which you also push the head backwards, that opens the throat up and you throw a quick leopard fist which in indonesian terms is "toya run" then you collapse is both elbows on his sternum and clinch the neck, there are about 8 finishes one which includes jumping with one leg in the air to get the momentum to slam his head on your kneeling knee on the ground. From there you elbow the occipital lobe and transition straight into a guillotine choke and break the neck in the same flow and then when he's on the ground you slap his face one side, fishook his mouth while resting your elbow point on the indention under his ear, then you can do more things but generally just finish by punching him right above the heart.




Sounds like more ULTRA DEADLY stuff.

In other words, crap.

You can practice that for decades, and if you don't spar, and you don't athletically condition, you'll never be able to fight.




Back to main topic: Karate guys, please, come up with a better set of sparring rules than the ones you already have. Don't make me do it for you.


Edited by Hedgehogey (05/20/05 07:23 PM)

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#146670 - 05/20/05 07:35 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Hedge,
What makes you think karate guys don't train 'alive'? I do as do many others. Training 'alive' coupled with all the knowledge and experience you've hopefully read here will make you better than JUST training 'alive'.


Quote:

Back to main topic: Karate guys, please, come up with a better set of sparring rules than the ones you already have. Don't make me do it for you.





Please enlighten me on what rules I have.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146671 - 05/20/05 08:07 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hedge,
As far as Petu...don't waste too much time. I can't figure out what he is saying. First, he bashes karate and then he comes to its defense.

As far as point sparring goes. I can't speak for others, but I don't do it. I actually don't go to competions. But the closest example to in class sparring we do---to varying degrees, would be similar to the Sabaki Challenge type sparring.

Generally, full contact, no pads sans face punches, but with graps and throws. Otherwise we put on gloves and head gear and go contact again, with punches and kicks, but this limits throws and grappling is out.

Occasionally, full contact without face punches and if you get swept or taken down...you roll until submission.

There are benefits and detriments to all the varying lengths that you go to put on protection or allow full contact. There are also allowed and disallowed techniques when sparring full contact that we do. One, we would do a cutting kick to knock an opponent down or make him lose his balance, but mimic the punch or strike to the back or to his spine. You have to be aware of real opportunities when training so that you don't dismiss these out of hand if necessity requires you to attack a particular target. If I get the opponent in the position to turn his back to me in full contact sparring, I cannot just punch him in the liver...so I tap him with a lighter palm heel from the back and take him down with a kick to the back of his leg.

There are other types of practice and each has varying degrees of physicality. However, I still see this as a type of practice. Better than point tappy-crappy stuff, but not reality. I have had friends injured badly in real altercations. Real fights are different than sparring.

And, by the way, I have never considered myself a fighter. But I do believe karate, if trained and introduced properly, has a lot to offer.

Regards,

-B

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#146672 - 05/20/05 08:53 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I believe we have some topic stealers moving in.

Gosh, threats about what sparring is.
Stories about signing your rights away for sparring in case of death.

There are many layers to what karate is, and even those of us who practice karate have difficulty talking about its practices becasue threre are so many differences.

First, at least in the states, you can't sign a 'death is my responsiblity waiver'. That has no legal bearing. Regardless of whether it is signed or not, if you're an instructor and allow no rules sparring and someting happens, legally you can be prosecuted by the legal system for your actions as well as the injured party or survivor can sue your tail off whether a document is signed or not.

Nice pretend legality, signing rights away.

Most instructors have insurance requirements to consider, to protect themselves or the property owners, and the insurance industry is making most old time sparring practices un-insurable. Now school owners can try and do without, but the legal responsiblity is great, and fewer are going to assume those risks as time goes on.

Second, there are layers of sparring practices.

Stand up point sparring has it training merits, as does anything goes (up to a point).

But there are techniques that do break arms, and legs, gouge eyes and throats, smash cheeks, spines and other nasty surprises. There is not a really safe way to incorporate sparring techniques whose goal is to break the arm being stuck out, and develop the ways of moving, redirction, etc. to make that happen.

As I choose to remain on topic, many of the chambering applications I discussed are not practiced 100% as in the kata. Kata practice helps develop the energy to make them work, and most of them require full body involvement of legs, both arms, etc. You don't just chamber.

It's a fool that doesn't belive a chambering movement cannot slash across one's face or throat doing damage. But just doing the kata or the beginning two person drill isn't learning the technique either.

There are layers of drills needed, to modified random sparring.

Unfortuantely I do use it for self defense, but as my self defense arts are primarily used with burmese stick technique, the butt of the stick being used for a chambering motion can strip the skin off of one's arm, or peel a face back quite a bit, and it's 100% kata chambering technique when its used this way.

And as I'm almost always with something in my hands it is a most reasonable self defense application.

The fact is there is no right answer, just people who have to justify their archaic sparring practices by running down others ways.

The larger reality is nobody can do anything, and it is fine to do what you can and not do what you don't have time to do.

Having sparring practices where techniques like chambering have no value is fine. Using chambering is fine too.

And taking the time to build skill against random attack with stomping kicks to break and dislocate knees, break arms, and all the rest is possible depending on one's focus.

But then again not doing those things is still karate too.

Pleasantly,
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#146673 - 05/20/05 09:04 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Victor (if I may use your first name),
You said:
The larger reality is nobody can do anything, and it is fine to do what you can and not do what you don't have time to do.

Having sparring practices where techniques like chambering have no value is fine. Using chambering is fine too.

And taking the time to build skill against random attack with stomping kicks to break and dislocate knees, break arms, and all the rest is possible depending on one's focus.

But then again not doing those things is still karate too.


You are right! 'Nough said. And sorry about the sidetrack. Sometimes I become a little defenseive about what others consider karate or the large derogatory brush used by some to paint the individual practioners of karate.

Regards,

-B

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#146674 - 05/20/05 09:05 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Thanks Victor for getting this thread back on track.
Chambering does not have to be just trapping the wrist. You could be pulling back the head(as in oldmns drawing),lapel,leg,foot,etc.. Also it doesn't have to be a reach,it could be grabbing and holding something given or close. The whole point of it is control of your opponent closest to you where your strength is.
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#146675 - 05/21/05 03:38 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Hedge,


As far as point sparring goes. I can't speak for others, but I don't do it. I actually don't go to competions. But the closest example to in class sparring we do---to varying degrees, would be similar to the Sabaki Challenge type sparring.

-B




I would agree that that is a good format. I was not assuming that all karateka do dead training (though it is a problem you should try to correct on planet karate) but having a little private armwrestling contest with petu.

Now, on to the second part of my line of questioning: Why not spar with these chambering applications? I mean, there's no reason why you can't grab and pull your partner's wrist (lapel, neck, whatever) and hit with the other hand. We do it in MMA. Why not refunctionalize something you're supposed to be good at?

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#146676 - 05/21/05 09:05 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
I agree with Hedge. While we often practice in street clothes, we choose not to grab clothing too often (shirts rip real easy.....trust me).

We do occasionally go for wrist grabs or kick catches, etc. Definitely adds a new element to your sparring when someone tries to grab a hand that you were just trying to hit with.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#146677 - 05/21/05 11:30 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
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Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hello all,

I agree with Hedge and Matt for the most the part. And as a bow to Sanchin31 and Mr. Smith, I will give an example of how a chamber is used in our style, with kibadachi (horse stance). Again, our style does not recommend chambering for punches against an active opponent in front of you nor would it rocommend a kibadachi aganist standing opponents.

OK, let's give this the best case scenario:

You are sparring and you get to a position behind your opponent. You knock your opponent down from behind with a kick to one of his legs; therefore, he starts to slide down and in order to control his fall while maintaing your balance, you go into a kibadachi or modified kibadachi with your back straight so he can't reach up and pull you over.

Ok, with that done, in the worst case for the opponent, you just plopped the back of his head down onto your knee for what amounts to a counter knee strike, though you are not lifing your knee here. In sparring, if you get to this point, you can place the opponent's head on the inside of your thigh, close to, but not on the knee.

Let's just say, for argument's sake, that he landed on your left thigh (and again, you are in kibadachi). Just as he lands, you have to chamber your right hand since the distance is now to close to allow energy to come into the punch from any other means...and then you can punch to the temple or behind the ear. The left hand would be controling the head of your opponent acting as the already extended hand when doing chambering practice. Ta...dah...Chambered punch.

-B

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#146678 - 05/21/05 11:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Holy S! Good one, Butterfly!

It occurs to me that at close range (say, clinch), that if you are throwing hooks to the body they are essentially coming out of the trad "chamber" position. Huh. How about that!

Uh oh.....Room spinning......woozy.....

*faints*
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#146679 - 05/21/05 11:52 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: MattJ]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Yes, MattJ,

I feinted to!

Pragmatic AKK MattJ does chamber in close range...and, as mentioned previously about reverse elbows, I seem to remember AKK basics having quite a few reverse elbows in them. Essentially, a chambered punch.

-B

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#146680 - 05/21/05 12:26 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" *DELETED* [Re: butterfly]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Post deleted by SANCHIN31
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#146681 - 05/21/05 12:29 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin?....Petju?....Oh good. It's just Sanchin31.

The funny thing is, no matter how you play it down, there are actually people who post this way. Gotta love it!
-B

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#146682 - 05/21/05 10:56 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Long derailing rant


Edited by SANCHIN31 (05/22/05 06:33 PM)

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#146683 - 05/22/05 03:08 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
In the style of Karate I do we have a really high chamber. The main reason for this is to build up muscles (holding arm in a high chamber all the time can be quite tough :P) and so we don't telegraph out moves so much. According to my sensai anyways Just wondering if many styles use a high chamber like Goju?

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#146684 - 05/22/05 04:50 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Multiversed]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Off topic.


Edited by SANCHIN31 (05/22/05 07:59 AM)

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#146685 - 05/22/05 08:03 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Bullfrog]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Bullfrog,
I used to do the high chamber,but ound it to be more practical to use it closer to your center sometimes.High for building strength and lower and centerd for more control when your opponent is to your side.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146686 - 05/22/05 08:21 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I think we are drifting a little, for me the motion of hikite and full chambering has many uses however unless im utilising one of those uses (ie grabbing and pulling, applying lock) i have no need for chambering, the hikite (in my mind hip movement) happens anyway as i have done many years basic training.

the point being that to blindly chamber your hand on your hip is of no use to anyone and could be considered bad defense. I personally dont buy the muscle/elbow strike argument by repative chambering.

However for basic training then the hikite and full chamber is of use to teach correct alignment of hips for offensive power transmition and defensive body alignment etc etc. It also introductes the principle of using both hands in karate!

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#146687 - 05/22/05 02:37 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin31,

Hey...I know there was probably some bitter vitriolic language in Hedge's post that you deleted. And probably with good reason. But to be fair, MV's post was not necessarily on topic either.

Funny, one comes to the defense of karate (which I have done myself) but with the same comments, puts his take on karate as better (and by implication, above) other karate. On this forum, I have never put down a particular art. Particular practioners, yes...by what they have stated...however, not what style or how others have trained.

I personally agree with JKogas' (and probably Hedge's training model). Since, I have personally seen proof that this practice works.

I have never had the opportunity in my youth to practice Okinawan Karate and am currently satisfied with where and how I train. And no, I do not know if I could take on a mugger....I do not claim to be a fighter or a brawler.

And yes, I have also seen how chambered punch training has helped me with my boxing style punches. I don't discredit those whom I have not had the privledge to practice with.

-B

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#146688 - 05/22/05 03:47 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
"what can the chamber be for?
1) elbow to ribs
2) two way action, push/pull
3) grappling, holding opponent in position for strikes or locks"

1) why not

2) no, if I pull I do so before a punch, not simultaneous, because otherwise I can't hit even close to the target (other than by chance) and the punch is much faster than the pull (of course the pull in application isn't necessarily as long as the one in formalised practice). In other words the "car crash" doesn't work for me (bou n.b. I'm talking about my own practice, not what's right or wrong)

3) if I understand this point correctly, then yes.

just my three cents...

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#146689 - 05/22/05 04:41 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Hedge

Brother, pal, buddy, please, please, pretty please, stop the generalization train before it leaves the station again, ok?

Karate is "blanket" or "umbrella" term that people use with less than accurate meaning.

There is NO "planet karate" as you put it.

There are dozens of discrete sytles and hundards of offshoots.
And like anything else--MMA included, some folks are excellent some are bottom-feeders

THERE IS NO "KARATE" STYLE PER-SE

When you pick something you find questionable or you don't like--then label it "karate" you building whats called a "strawman."
And "strawmen" are pretty useless in discussion or debate.

In answer to your question back on page 5--many styles do grab the arm/hair/lapel/etc of their oppt in sparring.


Edited by cxt (05/22/05 05:41 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146690 - 05/22/05 08:36 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bullfrog Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 121
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Hmm, that might give me something to think over about my chambering. Maybe high isn't always good . Thanks Sanchin

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#146691 - 05/23/05 03:44 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
PineForest Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Nebraska
Chambering is Karate's version of multitasking. You are training your non-striking hand to perform simultaneous action. Much like kata, the bunkai of this action can be interpreted in many different ways.

Is kata also useless? To bash chambering is to bash most kata, and this is simply ignorant. The push/pull action is what gives the Karate punch it's power. In a real situation you do not have time to put your dukes up and feel out your enemy with light jabs. So, perhaps chambering is useless in sport/point fighting. But when it's your life on the line, you need to end it in one swift action.
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I spanked you as a baby, and I'll spank you now.

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#146692 - 05/24/05 04:51 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: butterfly]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

Sanchin31,

Hey...I know there was probably some bitter vitriolic language in Hedge's post that you deleted. And probably with good reason. But to be fair, MV's post was not necessarily on topic either.

Funny, one comes to the defense of karate (which I have done myself) but with the same comments, puts his take on karate as better (and by implication, above) other karate. On this forum, I have never put down a particular art. Particular practioners, yes...by what they have stated...however, not what style or how others have trained.

I personally agree with JKogas' (and probably Hedge's training model).
-B



You don't seem to understand that karate is not a blanket term. Not all karate was created equal or even for the same purpose. Karate is a generic term which defines an art about as well as the term kenpo does (or kung fu or just chuan fa). You are commenting from a very diplomatic angle but your ability to truly understand what I'm saying is based on a limited knowledge of any specific ryuha or better yet the ryu of karate you are speaking of when you say "karate". It's not like boxing or judo. You have to be specific or else your comments mean squat here. Really. Trust me.

Both of my replies were on-topic. I addressed the often overlooked fact that beyond the obvious applications stated by the multitudes, proper chambering develops the sinews and muscles for proper punching when not chambering. It's structural biomechanics (ki).

I also talked about how chambering, or any other aspect of kata training, is crucial to understanding how to use your waza in a controlled gross-motor movement fashion. From macro movements comes refined motor movement needed to balance/enhance the effectiveness and reflexiveness of repetitive mind and muscle training. I used the example of pro football players and the use of controlled, limited pad practice versus hard full on, full-speed gameplay with every practice session. The former echoes the realities of traditional asian martial arts training, the latter the more ring or competition oriented styles.

All that was right on. Sanchin might not have liked some of my expressions, but my posts deal with the topic at hand.

Do I need to explain my position any further to those who need some sort of schooling about what this general term "karate" means? Don't delete knowledge. Just let the masses read and learn.

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#146693 - 05/24/05 06:03 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Multi,
I don't doubt that you have knowledge to share,but do you really think you can convince people with the your art sucks and mine don't attitude? That was not on topic at all.
The way you went about your post will only start a flame war that will go back and forth.With hedge talking about 'live' and you responding. Let's just get on with the learning and leave the rest at the door.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146694 - 05/24/05 09:37 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: SANCHIN31]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Small question, why does everyone argue applications back and forth, when you all have good applications that work... right ? they do work for you ? : )

anyway, all the applications stated are being used in different circumstances, and the circumstances dictate the application, cant you just agree that it can be used for infinite amount of applications for various combat activities? I myself agree with almost all applications stated, even MV about the sinews and whatnot. Were all trying to make karate "better" yet everyone is fighting against each other for NO reason. Just my thoughts.
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#146695 - 05/24/05 09:50 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Sanchin]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
It's like the blind men and the elephant.

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#146696 - 05/24/05 09:53 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: SANCHIN31]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Agreed, SANCHIN31.

Having a good message and being able to communicate that message are two different things. Berating/marginalizing people is a great way to NOT get your message across.

Learn to adapt your message to the audience, just as you would adapt your MA techniques to a particular situation.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#146697 - 05/24/05 12:30 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
MV,

You are right when you say I am trying to be diplomatic. And I do recongnize karate has become a blanket term, which in some instances, is unfair to the individual practioners of specific arts. That's because I have seen so many people trying to disabuse others of what they have learned or acomplished. But these people do not lead by example, they condemn. With condemnation, as MattJ stated, your message goes out the window.

All I am saying is that each and everyone of us legitimate (meaning trying to learn and improve, not make a buck) martial artists just want to get better. Hell, I had never been on a forum before this one. The reason, in my 40th year on this planet, after studying a few MAs, I wanted to learn more. I want guidance on where to go and how to answer questions that have suddenly come to me after 22 years of practicing.

In fact, after looking at posts by you and Victor Smith and a few others, I have endeavored to look more closely at Okinawan Kata. This is despite the fact that from my frame of reference, I have no connection to and do not necessarily see the utility of kata. So, if nothing else, "you" have piqued my curiosity. I try to keep an open mind. Part of this comes from what we are discussing about the chambered punch. I recognize a lot of the practice that we do in my style has utility, but only after a certain level of performance has been obtained. So there can be a lot out there that I am only marginally aware of. I just want to learn...and not to be a badass or join the UFC or do anything else. I am selfish in this regard and wish to improve, solely for my own sake.

The skepticism that most outside the karate world, and specifically, outside certain karate that I have come to know, is well founded by all the crap that floats around as MA. This still doesn't take away the value of what specifically, each of us has attained in our practice. Not all of us had the same opportunity as you to study your style. Some of us are just happy to be allowed to practice where and when we can, and do the best we can with what we have.

All I am saying MV, is don't condemn me, if you have a better way to do something...show me, explain it to me. I like to think that I am openminded enough to learn from just about anyone who has a good idea or a good technique.

Just don't punch me in the mouth before we have a chance to talk. That's all.

Hey, I did mention chambered punch in this post....not completely off topic.

-B

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#146698 - 05/25/05 12:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: butterfly]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I like your attitude butterfly. I respect what you're saying and you are very gracious in your responses. I'm here to learn too.

Matt and Sanchin: I understand what you guys are saying and I agree with most of it. We are all human and I have a lot of growing to do.

I don't think that what I do is not the only or the best. I also don't like to be lumped together with every knucklehead karate style out there. You always hear on these forums how "this is how karate would do it", or "karate is ineffective because of this" or "the precepts of karate" are this. I just got tired of hearing these generalizations from folks who most likely don't even know what real karate is.

The really funny thing is there are a lot of folks who know real karate and read these froums, laughing quietly to themselves at the oblivious nature of these so-called karate-ka's or martial artist's posts. They won't get on these sites and try to give you their perspective. They'll let you reach around blindly in the dark (speaking of the blindmen and elephant analogy), knowing they know what you can only guess at.

I went to a seminar this Saturday and was approached by another BB from New Orleans who asked me "why do I even waste my time, they can't know, won't know and won't change their minds even if you go to their school and kick all their a-ses". He was totally right. People are contrarian by nature. They are also, ironically, quick to expound the mass consensus and fail to experience knowledge for themselves. It's just easier that way. If no carbs is the new fad then they'll hop on the bandwagon. I hear a lot of responses based on what others have been told what is right or even what they see from a commercial outfit or on TV. Get real.

I have to defend the traditional position. I'm compelled. Hardly anyone of any significant rank or skill in real karate will bother discussing these points with anonymous whoevers. I'm not all that but I am a legit BB in a very solid karate style, Shorin Ryu.

Okinawan karate especially, is still very secretive, and is not an art that can be expressed without action. I try and not give away too much. If you really want to learn something go train. Go learn for real. But I try, so you can get the perspective of a traditionalist who has experienced multiple arts and angles and who knows that good Shorin Ryu is a real rare find when it comes to complete and practical MAs. I think Tadashi Yamashita, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Jim Kelly and so many other MAs and kickboxing pioneers proved this in the USA and abroad. You really can't include good Okinawan karate, and IMHO good Shorin Ryu into that whole typical "karate" category.

Chambering is good for solo kihon or kata training. It is never to be used as a guard when you are doing partner drills, kumite or fighting for real. It's a training tool not a technique for striking. Unless you are doing tuite it makes no sense to use it in a fighting situation.

Good responses and posts. I'll try to be less opinionated and nicer. 'Nuff respect!

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#146699 - 05/25/05 01:26 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Multi,
If you were too nice too often, I would wonder if someone hacked your e-mail. You also have made very good points which I cannot take away from you.

I have often been thrown into that same grouping of what karate is by others who do not know what they are talking about. So I understand your position. As an aside, I have even had my hand shaken once by a BJJ stylist after an "interesting" incident with someone who called himself a kickboxer. However, most people see some point tournaments and decide that this is what karate is. Well shame on them, and shame on those who sell karate in this open tournament fashion.

Karate isn't an open tournament with spandex, colored gis and lighted nun-chucks... it's deeper and wider and more complex. And, even though I might be following a lesser sibling of Okinawan Karate, I still have not plumbed the depths of my style. I am just starting to learn how to do things after 15 years of practice.

In any case, any honest info that you care to or are allowed to share, I am very willing to examine.

Humbly,
-B

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#146700 - 05/25/05 08:48 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Thanks Multi. Your opinions and knowledge are valuable to the forum. I'm not a PC softie by any means, I just believe in making a case through facts or educated suppositions as opposed to name calling or blanket generalizations.

And I'm not entirely immune to either of the last two, myself.

I learned in this very thread that I have been using the chamber - and not even realizing - it for a while.

Live and learn.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#146701 - 05/26/05 03:03 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I think I stated this before, in AKK we only chamber as a blocking action to the ribs, as a push/pull action to set up another strike, or when we are in an advantageous situation to load up for a little more power.

Multi, I'm with you. I get sick of being lumped in with other karate/kenpo practitioners because of bad instructors in JMA/OMA who are out to make a name for themselves. You want to tell me my entire style is pointless because someone went out and watered it down so he could spend more time at tournaments winning trophies? Sure I go to tournaments, for fun, but since I only attend 3-5 a year, I focus mostly on fine tuning what I already know, learning new info, and perfecting the possible applications of techniques I know. Some people just don't know what there really is to what we study. There is just too much hidden in what we do that the untrained would never notice. Here's one for MattJ. In AKK, from orange belt on, how many hidden moves are there per technique? And people try to tell me that Kenpo is an ineffective watered down system, when to someone who knows where to find all the hidden moves it can be a devestating art.

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