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#146696 - 05/24/05 09:53 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: SANCHIN31]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Agreed, SANCHIN31.

Having a good message and being able to communicate that message are two different things. Berating/marginalizing people is a great way to NOT get your message across.

Learn to adapt your message to the audience, just as you would adapt your MA techniques to a particular situation.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#146697 - 05/24/05 12:30 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA

You are right when you say I am trying to be diplomatic. And I do recongnize karate has become a blanket term, which in some instances, is unfair to the individual practioners of specific arts. That's because I have seen so many people trying to disabuse others of what they have learned or acomplished. But these people do not lead by example, they condemn. With condemnation, as MattJ stated, your message goes out the window.

All I am saying is that each and everyone of us legitimate (meaning trying to learn and improve, not make a buck) martial artists just want to get better. Hell, I had never been on a forum before this one. The reason, in my 40th year on this planet, after studying a few MAs, I wanted to learn more. I want guidance on where to go and how to answer questions that have suddenly come to me after 22 years of practicing.

In fact, after looking at posts by you and Victor Smith and a few others, I have endeavored to look more closely at Okinawan Kata. This is despite the fact that from my frame of reference, I have no connection to and do not necessarily see the utility of kata. So, if nothing else, "you" have piqued my curiosity. I try to keep an open mind. Part of this comes from what we are discussing about the chambered punch. I recognize a lot of the practice that we do in my style has utility, but only after a certain level of performance has been obtained. So there can be a lot out there that I am only marginally aware of. I just want to learn...and not to be a badass or join the UFC or do anything else. I am selfish in this regard and wish to improve, solely for my own sake.

The skepticism that most outside the karate world, and specifically, outside certain karate that I have come to know, is well founded by all the crap that floats around as MA. This still doesn't take away the value of what specifically, each of us has attained in our practice. Not all of us had the same opportunity as you to study your style. Some of us are just happy to be allowed to practice where and when we can, and do the best we can with what we have.

All I am saying MV, is don't condemn me, if you have a better way to do me, explain it to me. I like to think that I am openminded enough to learn from just about anyone who has a good idea or a good technique.

Just don't punch me in the mouth before we have a chance to talk. That's all.

Hey, I did mention chambered punch in this post....not completely off topic.


#146698 - 05/25/05 12:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: butterfly]
Multiversed Offline

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
I like your attitude butterfly. I respect what you're saying and you are very gracious in your responses. I'm here to learn too.

Matt and Sanchin: I understand what you guys are saying and I agree with most of it. We are all human and I have a lot of growing to do.

I don't think that what I do is not the only or the best. I also don't like to be lumped together with every knucklehead karate style out there. You always hear on these forums how "this is how karate would do it", or "karate is ineffective because of this" or "the precepts of karate" are this. I just got tired of hearing these generalizations from folks who most likely don't even know what real karate is.

The really funny thing is there are a lot of folks who know real karate and read these froums, laughing quietly to themselves at the oblivious nature of these so-called karate-ka's or martial artist's posts. They won't get on these sites and try to give you their perspective. They'll let you reach around blindly in the dark (speaking of the blindmen and elephant analogy), knowing they know what you can only guess at.

I went to a seminar this Saturday and was approached by another BB from New Orleans who asked me "why do I even waste my time, they can't know, won't know and won't change their minds even if you go to their school and kick all their a-ses". He was totally right. People are contrarian by nature. They are also, ironically, quick to expound the mass consensus and fail to experience knowledge for themselves. It's just easier that way. If no carbs is the new fad then they'll hop on the bandwagon. I hear a lot of responses based on what others have been told what is right or even what they see from a commercial outfit or on TV. Get real.

I have to defend the traditional position. I'm compelled. Hardly anyone of any significant rank or skill in real karate will bother discussing these points with anonymous whoevers. I'm not all that but I am a legit BB in a very solid karate style, Shorin Ryu.

Okinawan karate especially, is still very secretive, and is not an art that can be expressed without action. I try and not give away too much. If you really want to learn something go train. Go learn for real. But I try, so you can get the perspective of a traditionalist who has experienced multiple arts and angles and who knows that good Shorin Ryu is a real rare find when it comes to complete and practical MAs. I think Tadashi Yamashita, Mike Stone, Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Jim Kelly and so many other MAs and kickboxing pioneers proved this in the USA and abroad. You really can't include good Okinawan karate, and IMHO good Shorin Ryu into that whole typical "karate" category.

Chambering is good for solo kihon or kata training. It is never to be used as a guard when you are doing partner drills, kumite or fighting for real. It's a training tool not a technique for striking. Unless you are doing tuite it makes no sense to use it in a fighting situation.

Good responses and posts. I'll try to be less opinionated and nicer. 'Nuff respect!

#146699 - 05/25/05 01:26 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
If you were too nice too often, I would wonder if someone hacked your e-mail. You also have made very good points which I cannot take away from you.

I have often been thrown into that same grouping of what karate is by others who do not know what they are talking about. So I understand your position. As an aside, I have even had my hand shaken once by a BJJ stylist after an "interesting" incident with someone who called himself a kickboxer. However, most people see some point tournaments and decide that this is what karate is. Well shame on them, and shame on those who sell karate in this open tournament fashion.

Karate isn't an open tournament with spandex, colored gis and lighted nun-chucks... it's deeper and wider and more complex. And, even though I might be following a lesser sibling of Okinawan Karate, I still have not plumbed the depths of my style. I am just starting to learn how to do things after 15 years of practice.

In any case, any honest info that you care to or are allowed to share, I am very willing to examine.


#146700 - 05/25/05 08:48 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: Multiversed]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Thanks Multi. Your opinions and knowledge are valuable to the forum. I'm not a PC softie by any means, I just believe in making a case through facts or educated suppositions as opposed to name calling or blanket generalizations.

And I'm not entirely immune to either of the last two, myself.

I learned in this very thread that I have been using the chamber - and not even realizing - it for a while.

Live and learn.
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

#146701 - 05/26/05 03:03 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" and slightly off topic [Re: MattJ]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I think I stated this before, in AKK we only chamber as a blocking action to the ribs, as a push/pull action to set up another strike, or when we are in an advantageous situation to load up for a little more power.

Multi, I'm with you. I get sick of being lumped in with other karate/kenpo practitioners because of bad instructors in JMA/OMA who are out to make a name for themselves. You want to tell me my entire style is pointless because someone went out and watered it down so he could spend more time at tournaments winning trophies? Sure I go to tournaments, for fun, but since I only attend 3-5 a year, I focus mostly on fine tuning what I already know, learning new info, and perfecting the possible applications of techniques I know. Some people just don't know what there really is to what we study. There is just too much hidden in what we do that the untrained would never notice. Here's one for MattJ. In AKK, from orange belt on, how many hidden moves are there per technique? And people try to tell me that Kenpo is an ineffective watered down system, when to someone who knows where to find all the hidden moves it can be a devestating art.

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