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#146666 - 05/20/05 04:13 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
Thats the problem. In the phillipines it is mainly Kali and those other arts. Indonesia is where silat is mainly from. I dont really care what the people you were exposed to thought. ABout half of my training group is phillipino and they did mainly stick arts and some of the empty hand stuff. They may not have had contact with some arts. One of my phillipino teachers was telling me about how many people never experienced the heritage of growing up with the true phillipino martial arts and instead got a lot of watered down stuff. Also, i dont need to tell me what someone thinks of silat. I have exposure to it and have seen it. Everyone in my group has done other arts. Karate is fine. One guy there did karate for 25 years, hapkido, some stick and tai chi. Another has done wing chun for 35 years, Bjj, JKD, and boxing. He ran his own boxing gym/ Wing chun school. Another has ninjitsu experience and shotokan for 10 years. I could go on. Dan Inosanto learned silat for awhile. I dont think he would if didnt like it because he only searches for what he considers the best stuff. The styles you listed down there looks like you copied off of the curriculum of a Paul Vunak website. In conclusion karate is fine but you are wrong in your argument.

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#146667 - 05/20/05 04:29 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
your telling me I fear change. THats funny. I sparred. Yep. If you dont think training with a partner works, then ......whatever. A guy with just 5 years of training in our group whipped up on a lot of shotokan black belts at a local school and he is a fat guy who just turned 42. Not to pick on shotokan but thats what he got from partner training. You have to train with a partner and as time goes on you apply the speed. Its like Bjj, you tap out before you break their arm you dont just go on with the techniques. There are some very dangerous things and you have to be careful. My instructor has a liablity waiver that says if you lose your life than he is not held liable because there are neck breaks and all kinds of stuff you do what you can. I guarantee you my instructor can apply the stuff and most of his training has been with a partner for the 65 years that he has learned. He has also fought kung fu guys, grapplers, a karate guy, muy thai..and so on. Whenever there is a seminar when he shows attendees a technique on them he tells them not to counter it. It is because his reactions are instant and the techniques are very dangerous. The guy in our group who does Bjj was once used to do a technique on the ground. He thought he knew a really easy way to counter it so he tried. My instructor dropped his elbows on his sternum and cranked his neck foreward and instantly broke his ribcage. No one tries to counter him because thats how it is. Ive heard the too deadly to spar thing a lot and I agree with it in many cases. But there are exceptions. Look at San Soo. A lot of it is partner training and if you have seen the stuff it is pretty effective. Its just not easy to do something without hurting someone when you do one sequence that is finishing the guy off. YOu dont want to kill him, you want to work with him again next time. The first sequence we learn "Pukulan 1" is where you slip the guys punch on the inside and throw a jab to the eyes which you also push the head backwards, that opens the throat up and you throw a quick leopard fist which in indonesian terms is "toya run" then you collapse is both elbows on his sternum and clinch the neck, there are about 8 finishes one which includes jumping with one leg in the air to get the momentum to slam his head on your kneeling knee on the ground. From there you elbow the occipital lobe and transition straight into a guillotine choke and break the neck in the same flow and then when he's on the ground you slap his face one side, fishook his mouth while resting your elbow point on the indention under his ear, then you can do more things but generally just finish by punching him right above the heart.

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#146668 - 05/20/05 04:44 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
Butterfly

Not off topic at all, part of the problem here (as I see it anyway) are the unfounded assumptions of what karate "is."
Karate is a pretty big box in terms of styles and technique.

And as you point out, what many people see and label "karate" are really pretty poor examples of it.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 06:20 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146669 - 05/20/05 07:22 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Petjut84]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

is. Ive heard the too deadly to spar thing a lot and I agree with it in many cases. But there are exceptions. Look at San Soo. A lot of it is partner training and if you have seen the stuff it is pretty effective. Its just not easy to do something without hurting someone when you do one sequence that is finishing the guy off.





What the hell is "finishing the guy off"? Seriously, what technique are you doing? Are you frantically mashing buttons in hopes of a babality?

Compliant sequences don't help you learn to fight. We had this debate a decade ago, aliveness won. Get the plaque, eat the damn apple of knowledge, move on with your life.

Quote:

YOu dont want to kill him, you want to work with him again next time. The first sequence we learn "Pukulan 1" is where you slip the guys punch on the inside and throw a jab to the eyes which you also push the head backwards, that opens the throat up and you throw a quick leopard fist which in indonesian terms is "toya run" then you collapse is both elbows on his sternum and clinch the neck, there are about 8 finishes one which includes jumping with one leg in the air to get the momentum to slam his head on your kneeling knee on the ground. From there you elbow the occipital lobe and transition straight into a guillotine choke and break the neck in the same flow and then when he's on the ground you slap his face one side, fishook his mouth while resting your elbow point on the indention under his ear, then you can do more things but generally just finish by punching him right above the heart.




Sounds like more ULTRA DEADLY stuff.

In other words, crap.

You can practice that for decades, and if you don't spar, and you don't athletically condition, you'll never be able to fight.




Back to main topic: Karate guys, please, come up with a better set of sparring rules than the ones you already have. Don't make me do it for you.


Edited by Hedgehogey (05/20/05 07:23 PM)

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#146670 - 05/20/05 07:35 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Hedge,
What makes you think karate guys don't train 'alive'? I do as do many others. Training 'alive' coupled with all the knowledge and experience you've hopefully read here will make you better than JUST training 'alive'.


Quote:

Back to main topic: Karate guys, please, come up with a better set of sparring rules than the ones you already have. Don't make me do it for you.





Please enlighten me on what rules I have.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146671 - 05/20/05 08:07 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hedge,
As far as Petu...don't waste too much time. I can't figure out what he is saying. First, he bashes karate and then he comes to its defense.

As far as point sparring goes. I can't speak for others, but I don't do it. I actually don't go to competions. But the closest example to in class sparring we do---to varying degrees, would be similar to the Sabaki Challenge type sparring.

Generally, full contact, no pads sans face punches, but with graps and throws. Otherwise we put on gloves and head gear and go contact again, with punches and kicks, but this limits throws and grappling is out.

Occasionally, full contact without face punches and if you get swept or taken down...you roll until submission.

There are benefits and detriments to all the varying lengths that you go to put on protection or allow full contact. There are also allowed and disallowed techniques when sparring full contact that we do. One, we would do a cutting kick to knock an opponent down or make him lose his balance, but mimic the punch or strike to the back or to his spine. You have to be aware of real opportunities when training so that you don't dismiss these out of hand if necessity requires you to attack a particular target. If I get the opponent in the position to turn his back to me in full contact sparring, I cannot just punch him in the liver...so I tap him with a lighter palm heel from the back and take him down with a kick to the back of his leg.

There are other types of practice and each has varying degrees of physicality. However, I still see this as a type of practice. Better than point tappy-crappy stuff, but not reality. I have had friends injured badly in real altercations. Real fights are different than sparring.

And, by the way, I have never considered myself a fighter. But I do believe karate, if trained and introduced properly, has a lot to offer.

Regards,

-B

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#146672 - 05/20/05 08:53 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I believe we have some topic stealers moving in.

Gosh, threats about what sparring is.
Stories about signing your rights away for sparring in case of death.

There are many layers to what karate is, and even those of us who practice karate have difficulty talking about its practices becasue threre are so many differences.

First, at least in the states, you can't sign a 'death is my responsiblity waiver'. That has no legal bearing. Regardless of whether it is signed or not, if you're an instructor and allow no rules sparring and someting happens, legally you can be prosecuted by the legal system for your actions as well as the injured party or survivor can sue your tail off whether a document is signed or not.

Nice pretend legality, signing rights away.

Most instructors have insurance requirements to consider, to protect themselves or the property owners, and the insurance industry is making most old time sparring practices un-insurable. Now school owners can try and do without, but the legal responsiblity is great, and fewer are going to assume those risks as time goes on.

Second, there are layers of sparring practices.

Stand up point sparring has it training merits, as does anything goes (up to a point).

But there are techniques that do break arms, and legs, gouge eyes and throats, smash cheeks, spines and other nasty surprises. There is not a really safe way to incorporate sparring techniques whose goal is to break the arm being stuck out, and develop the ways of moving, redirction, etc. to make that happen.

As I choose to remain on topic, many of the chambering applications I discussed are not practiced 100% as in the kata. Kata practice helps develop the energy to make them work, and most of them require full body involvement of legs, both arms, etc. You don't just chamber.

It's a fool that doesn't belive a chambering movement cannot slash across one's face or throat doing damage. But just doing the kata or the beginning two person drill isn't learning the technique either.

There are layers of drills needed, to modified random sparring.

Unfortuantely I do use it for self defense, but as my self defense arts are primarily used with burmese stick technique, the butt of the stick being used for a chambering motion can strip the skin off of one's arm, or peel a face back quite a bit, and it's 100% kata chambering technique when its used this way.

And as I'm almost always with something in my hands it is a most reasonable self defense application.

The fact is there is no right answer, just people who have to justify their archaic sparring practices by running down others ways.

The larger reality is nobody can do anything, and it is fine to do what you can and not do what you don't have time to do.

Having sparring practices where techniques like chambering have no value is fine. Using chambering is fine too.

And taking the time to build skill against random attack with stomping kicks to break and dislocate knees, break arms, and all the rest is possible depending on one's focus.

But then again not doing those things is still karate too.

Pleasantly,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#146673 - 05/20/05 09:04 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Victor (if I may use your first name),
You said:
The larger reality is nobody can do anything, and it is fine to do what you can and not do what you don't have time to do.

Having sparring practices where techniques like chambering have no value is fine. Using chambering is fine too.

And taking the time to build skill against random attack with stomping kicks to break and dislocate knees, break arms, and all the rest is possible depending on one's focus.

But then again not doing those things is still karate too.


You are right! 'Nough said. And sorry about the sidetrack. Sometimes I become a little defenseive about what others consider karate or the large derogatory brush used by some to paint the individual practioners of karate.

Regards,

-B

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#146674 - 05/20/05 09:05 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Victor Smith]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Thanks Victor for getting this thread back on track.
Chambering does not have to be just trapping the wrist. You could be pulling back the head(as in oldmns drawing),lapel,leg,foot,etc.. Also it doesn't have to be a reach,it could be grabbing and holding something given or close. The whole point of it is control of your opponent closest to you where your strength is.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146675 - 05/21/05 03:38 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Hedge,


As far as point sparring goes. I can't speak for others, but I don't do it. I actually don't go to competions. But the closest example to in class sparring we do---to varying degrees, would be similar to the Sabaki Challenge type sparring.

-B




I would agree that that is a good format. I was not assuming that all karateka do dead training (though it is a problem you should try to correct on planet karate) but having a little private armwrestling contest with petu.

Now, on to the second part of my line of questioning: Why not spar with these chambering applications? I mean, there's no reason why you can't grab and pull your partner's wrist (lapel, neck, whatever) and hit with the other hand. We do it in MMA. Why not refunctionalize something you're supposed to be good at?

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