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#146656 - 05/20/05 02:26 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Beyond the fighting aspects of chambering in kihon or kata training, the chamber is a structural exercise meant to strengthen, stretch and condition the tendons and muscles involved in punching. Here's an example: you have 2 pieces of rubber tubing of the same width or guage but of different lengths. You want to make a wrist-rocket (slingshot) out of one of these. You test the shorter one, and the distance you can pull it back is limited, due to its decreased flexibility (and length). It projects your stone a significant distance, but it lacks the velocity and distance you desire. The second piece of tubing is a bit longer. You notice that when you pull back on it. the length of the tubing is significantly increased. The stone is projected at a greater velocity travels quite a distance further.

Your arm which has tendons powered by gravity, momentum and muscle power serves to project your fist in a similar manner. This combined with relaxed power which enhances velocity, serves to make your strikes that much more powerful.

So beyond the typical responses know that from a biomechanical standpoint, chambering properly increases the length and strength of your sinews which in efect means greater punching power. BTW no real karate person ever chambers in the real world or even when free sparring. The stuff you see in karate tourneys is modified kendo kumite. It's not real karate sparring.

Also it's filipino or pilipino or even "pinoy" but never philippino. Sige na pare ko?!

I lived in the PI for 7 years, there is nothing that you know about silat that I don't know or haven't experienced first hand. The real fighters I knew in the Philippines usually knew panatukan/panajakman/dumog, JKD, Thai Boxing or Okinawan karate. Very few thought highly of or did silat, although some did Kuntaw mixed with some Silat. It's a very minor Muslim style of fighting. Nowadays MMAs can be added to that mix.

Go to the general MAs forum if you're here to put down karate. You should only comment on what you really know. Otherwise shut your trap and learn.

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#146657 - 05/20/05 02:34 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Multiversed]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Multiverse,

For the karate stuff, totally agree with you on this take. For the Philipine MA and Indonesian MA, I have limited exposure and my ingornace is abundant.

-B

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#146658 - 05/20/05 02:42 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS




Can you not comment on this yourself?




I can, but I figure the mention of his name would remind you of the silliness of your position. I don't think I need to write a long speech on the neccesity of aliveness and applying your techniques in full contact sparring for them to be at all effective. You know the fallacy of "lethal techniques" that can never be sparred with and how that makes said techniques innefective. If you actually are that ignorant, do a search on "aliveness".

In fact, it seems a lot of karate people have the same problem as silatists. You have all these applications where you're grabbing the wrist, trapping the arm, etc. and striking with the other hand, but you make the "2 deadly 2 spar with" excuse and thus your bunkai never become effective for actual fighting.

Maybe it's because you fear things not looking like classical karate when the [censored] hits the fan.
Not my problem if you fear change.

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#146659 - 05/20/05 03:16 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: butterfly]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
butterfly... can you tell me why kids don't listen today?

Multiverse:
Quote:


Also it's filipino or pilipino or even "pinoy" but never philippino. Sige na pare ko?!




butterfly:
Quote:

For the Philipine MA and Indonesian MA, I have limited exposure and my ingornace is abundant.





now go back and fix your post. If it's too late, then go to your room and no video games for 1 day.

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#146660 - 05/20/05 03:19 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Hedge

Sorry bro, "straw men", overly broad generaliztions, unfounded assumption and putting words into other folks mouths are simply not a good methods of arguementation.
Not if you wish to actually support your contentions anyway.

Maybe your problem is that your confusing the highly organized, rule driven, "lets all get streached out and all good and warmed up" competitive sparring with "real" attack?

Don't feel bad, made the same mistake myself when I was much younger and much more foolish.

Couple a guys, a length of pipe, a knife and an "assult with intent" helped me get over the notion that "sparring" and real life self-defense have much in common.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 03:22 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146661 - 05/20/05 03:24 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Kintama]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
As far as Filipino, I meant Philipine as "Country of", like United States Boxing, not adjetival in the same sense as Filipino. I know, I srewed up on not keeping the same "texture" in my comments when using Indonesian. Oh well, sue me.

By the way, my Filipino friends corrected this out of me awhile back.:)

-B

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#146662 - 05/20/05 03:32 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: cxt]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Hedge

Sorry bro, "straw men", overly broad generaliztions, unfounded assumption and putting words into other folks mouths are simply not a good methods of arguementation.
Not if you wish to actually support your contentions anyway.

Maybe your problem is that your confusing the highly organized, rule driven, "lets all get streached out and all good and warmed up" competitive sparring with "real" attack?

Don't feel bad, made the same mistake myself when I was much younger and much more foolish.

Couple a guys, a length of pipe, a knife and an "assult with intent" helped me get over the notion that "sparring" and real life self-defense have much in common.




How else would you train? With compliant drills? With "scenarios"? That's not realistic.

Sparring may not be the same as THE STREET, but for actual fighting, it is the best method of training there is.

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#146663 - 05/20/05 03:48 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hedge,

I agree with you mostly. Believe me when I say that I have encountered real sparring for standup in karate and I practice BJJ at another dojo (and in the karate studio that I go to since my instructor studied with the Machados).

However, I would say, don't confuse the "practice" of some of the things discussed about karate, with the application, which can be apparently different, but have a connection with muscle memory and gross body movement. This is the problem. The practice and the use. And by the way, I agree with you on a lot of the schmancy, fancy death touches or the secret killing techniques. You have to be able to produce usable techniques and these have to be seen in sparring practice, otherwise some practices become suspect. But don't discount all the training inherent in karate, because of poor examples you may have witnessed elsewhere. I also try to be open minded since I come from a more recent incarnation of karate heavily influenced by boxing and kickboxing.

The real problem, as you noted, is that there is a lot of crappy karate out there so you have to look through the fluff. And that is indeed hard.

Regards,
-B

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#146664 - 05/20/05 03:50 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Hedge

Actually its only one of many methods that are used to train.

The short version of my (and most serious MA) includes, drills, two-man drills/grappling/ etc, bagwork, strength training, endurence training (running, jumping rope etc) sparring, kata, etc.

Sparring is just a PART of the puzzle.

Consider this, look at pro boxers, do all they do is spar?

Course not, they shadowbox, train specific combos and drills--on the bag, in the air and with partners--who more or less ARE "complient" in that they know exactly what is being worked and exactly what they are to do.

I used to wrestle, (very light middle-weight) and a large part of the training consists of working specific "moves" with a partner that is "supposed" to do specific things.
Pretty much what you would call "complient" in that we both knew what we were working on, just how it was to be done and exactly how we were to do it.

Was it used in a "free" manner in competition? Sure, but that is sure NOT how it was trained or how the skill was developed or honed.

Just some stuff to consider.


Edited by cxt (05/20/05 03:51 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#146665 - 05/20/05 03:59 PM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: cxt]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
CXT,

Good, logical post. Positional changes in grappling for movement without submissions! Also, never saw a mugger come up to anyone and drop to the cement in a guard position, and say, "Give me your money!"

The problem as I and others noted is the poor showing most karate dojos give the general public. Therefore, everyone thinks that karateka jump forward and back and chamber huge reverse punches from the hip when in a deep zenkutsadachi.

And sorry, I know. Off topic.

-B

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