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#146636 - 05/20/05 03:44 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS

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#146637 - 05/20/05 03:59 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Hedgehogey]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Quote:

"You think self defense is sparring? So when I get attacked me and my attacker are going to square off and dance around looking for openings. That's what I mean when I said you don't know what you're talking about."




PAGING JOHN KOGAS




Can you not comment on this yourself?
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#146638 - 05/20/05 06:04 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
For me the chamber means many things now, I used to be taught and trained that the elbow needs to be pulled 'right' back and tight to the body for power in your punch! I agree with the tight to the body bit.

I now practise with basics or kumite with the chamber hand resting softly against /or near my solar plexes, far more pratical. And can be seen in historic pictures of choki motobu, shoshin nagamine and many others. For kata training I follow the correct position, usually full hikite but am aware that I am doing 'something' with that hand/movement. the hikite position when using shuto uke gives the game away! ie resting on the solar plexes or near to.

I think the 'exagerated' chamber is taught to get people moving their hips as begineers as much as anything else, I also think that some instructors actually think that by pulling one arm back the other one goes forward faster - maybee it does maybee it doesnt.

But I know understand that very little is as it seems in karate and learning the application of karate is a far greater skill than just learning the moves, great stuff indeed!


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#146639 - 05/20/05 08:03 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: shoshinkan]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
In my dojo, when performing basics we place a huge amount of importance on the chambering of the rear hand. Firstly because as already mentioned it encourages new students to fully utilize their hips when striking. However the deeper and more important reason for this is the two way action.

A simple analogy (that isn't partically pleasant so I hope I don't offend anyone) of why we do this is that of a car crash. When a moving car impacts against a stationary object it generates alot of energy, the energy from the car is transfered into the object. However, should a moving car impact another moving object then there is a hell of a lot more energy created on impact. In addition to the energy of the moving car, you also have the energy of the moving object which it collides with being brought into the equation which adds to the damge. By using the rear hand to pull an opponent towards us, we greatly add to the amount of energy (thus damage) created on impact. This is the reason why we place so much emphasis on the chambering of the rear hand.

Hope that made sense?

Gav
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#146640 - 05/20/05 08:43 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Gavin, respectfully of course, I disagree with the analogy. Your car example is correct, but I don't think pulling the opponent toward you will gain significant power due to the very low velocity of the opponents body (with respect to punch speed). The pulling while chamber application is for balance disorientation of your opponent and mai. Adjusting mai can increase/decrease power by a significant amount, certainly more than that added by collision speed of a body being pulled.

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#146641 - 05/20/05 08:54 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
whilst I see the benefits of 'pulling' the opponent towards you and striking, i think it is more pratical to stop them moving away from the strike.

pratically this is diffiuclt in my expieirence, i generally train the use of hikite is for pulling the opponent off balance and into locks, bars etc etc. to me it highlights that we have 2 hands and should use them!

It has many uses !

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#146642 - 05/20/05 09:12 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Kintama]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Kintama, I'm not sure I used that analogy in the correct context. When I teach it in the dojo it makes sense, and seems appropriate. In the blocks thread I gave an application for a head block or as we call it Jodan Uke. An attacker steps through with a straight right punch, the defender slides in and parrys using there left hand. With the left hand the defender grabs the attackers right wrist with the their left hand and pulls sharply into the left hip. At the same time they step in on the right foot and deliver a right jodan uke into the side of the attackers neck.

In this application I'm redirecting my opponents energy while adding velocity to it via the chambering of my left hand. My opponents velocity is now met with the force of my jodan uke moving into him.

I find that I can greatly add to an opponents momentum this way. Perhaps I getting concepts confused?

Gav
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#146643 - 05/20/05 09:33 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: SANCHIN31]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
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#146644 - 05/20/05 09:39 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: oldman]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
LOL, superb Oldman !

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#146645 - 05/20/05 09:41 AM Re: The dreaded "chamber" [Re: Gavin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Chambering is highly critical to the way I use my art.

1. First the chamber position we use is the lower one, not the high chest chamber. The following answers would work (perhaps with modifications) for the high chamber, but it's not what I do.

2. A Chinese use of chambering is solely defensive, pulling the hand back to protect the lower from of the abdomen, highly vulnerable to a strike or a kick, so the chambering hand is to protect that area. Useful if you run into somebody who understand the vital point striking theories involved.

2. The act of chambering is reinforcing a grab and retract response, to draw the opponent towards you. The sharper you chamber in practice the more your grab and pull will have a shock effect.

3. The chambering hand is a Primary slashing offensive technique. It can rip into someone from angles they don't anticipate. Thus chambering is designed to take your oppoent apart.

4. The art of Chambering is a prime defensive technique to slash into someody sticking something out at your. You can find a Chinese 100% equivalent in the early Northern Eagle Claw 108 2 person locking set.

5. The chamber (lower) does create a great rear elbow strike, against bear hugs and somebody directly behind you. A great crack into the ribs or solar plexus to create an opening to take advantage of.

6. Chambering is not a solo act, it is almost always acompanied by other body technique, like simultaneous strike/blocks or punches. The full body application often describes multiple answers in the same movement.

With this the chambering as the other arm is performing something else is a very advanced body movement alignment technique to increase overall technique power. An example is how the correct use of chambering in Naifanchi Kata increases the power of the overall major technique taking place.

Poor Chambering equals less power and technique respoinsiblity.

Now there are ways to do all these things without chambering, but then you're not fully using kata potential and are taking another answer. But fully using kata potential allows you to utilize kata practice for energy management and development more fully.

Chambering, from my perspective, the only way I go.
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