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#146309 - 01/29/06 06:04 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
Quote:

my friend is a little shorter than me but hez twice my weight and he is a football player and pretty much when we wrestler if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething and he grabz my armz and throwz me around like a ragdoll and only way i evar win is if i can squeeze out of his holdz and get behind him 2 choke him and that isnt aikido.

what should i do when i wrestle against him????????




That was from the original post from Poster: Ninjasaurus. And he is right. "if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething" Why? Because that is NOT Aikido. You do NOT attack. In Aikido you wait for HIM to attack. Then you use his weight and momentum against him to destroy his balance.

Sorry if someone else pointed that out already. There were an awful lot of posts.

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#146310 - 02/28/06 08:10 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: iaibear]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
The biggest reason people "can't do anything" with somebody that size using conventional techniques is that their hands don't wrap around their wrists to do sankyo, etc. When that happens, you have to learn to improvise, and move to something you can use, like gripping the middle three fingers and doing sankyo.

In my style of jujitsu, I teach 5 different methods of doing sankyo, and each of them is uniquely painful in a different way using the same spiraling energy. If the attacker is so large you can't grab them, you grab what you can and do the techniques.

Chin na, the Chinese equivalent of Aikido, has a lot of different methods of splitting the fingers and attacking the hand instead of the wrist in order to accomplish a grip or pin-type seizure. If you can't do anything with your friend, it's not because of his size, it's because of the size of your technique.

One of my favorite techniques when somebody, regardless of their size, grabs me in a "bear hug" is to simply press sharply into the base of their fingernail. I've had guys his size almost jump over me to get the pressure off, so it isn't the attacker's size that matters, it's how you turn that attack to your advantage.



p.s. you could use a good spell checker... "nerd talk" sucks pond water, and you can't carry on intelligent discussions if your input looks like somebody wiped with it.
_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#146311 - 03/01/06 08:53 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: iaibear]
xuzen_628 Offline
Unknown MA champion

Registered: 08/02/05
Posts: 102
Loc: Malaysia
When size is clearly at a disadvantage, use small circle jujutsu aka Chin-na.

Once we were doing ryote kata mochi nikyo (Both hand grips on shoulder). I was the uke and my tori was a diminutive middle age obasan (housewife), height at my armpit level and only half my weight.

She could not do conventional nikyo on me because like wristtwister said, she just could not secure a firm grip on my larger wrist (Frequent ken suburi does really make one's wrist large). However, my sensei came over, and asked her to grip my last two fingers and reapply nikyo. I painfully went down.

Xwf
_________________________
Knowing one technique that will surely work is better than knowing hundred that will probably work.

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#146312 - 03/02/06 10:10 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: xuzen_628]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
Another aspect of dealing with "large people" is to develop the ability to make them "reach" for you, so that they are always over-extended and off balance. You can accomplish this in a lot of different ways, such as "reaching down" and forcing them to lean over, or stepping back and turning your body so your wrists and arms aren't so accessible to them.

One of the principles I teach in jujitsu is that "the body follows pain", so making something painful is another way to encourage such a large guy to take himself off his structure, and cause them to lose their balance. If you combine it with movement and an "adjustment", you can move even the biggest bruiser easily.

I teach a series of "palms up" and "palms down" techniques that instantly change the big fellow's "grip attitude" and lead him to change his body's structure, usually in an off-balanced condition. If you'll turn your hand over just before he gets his grip, and then return to your "natural" position, I can promise you that you'll already have an advantage over the attacker, no matter what his size might be.

Remember that the point of contact is always an active point for turning your opponent around by simply going to your natural position, and seeing things "his way" (tenkan).

If you want to do Nikkyo, all you have to do is learn to "roll your wrists" like a Hawaiian Hula dancer, and you can apply nikkyo on anybody. If you do Tai Chi, and "ward off", all you need do is to roll your wrist a bit further and wave at your friends, and you'll have the bugger in nikkyo so fast they won't know what happened. Remember, it's "just a wave", so you don't need to work hard to do it.

The other method is called "throwing a rope around a limb", and you simply keep your wrist and hand completely relaxed and act like you're winding a rope around the end of a stick. Be careful not to smash their face when you do this, however, because most of the time, people get a little too relaxed with it and cause their partner to slam into the floor or nearest solid object.

Big people are still people, and their bodies work the same way as runts... they just make more noise when they hit the floor...

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#146313 - 03/06/06 01:30 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ninjasaurus]
theoldone Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/06
Posts: 172
Hmmm...

If things are not working for you, you need to "look at the fish".

Eh? Wot?

"The fish" is about the famous scientist Louis Agassiz and how he unlocked the "secrets" of a species of extinct fish through studying the bones that was dug up in an expeditionary dig.

The story can be found in Maxwell Matltz's book, PsychoCybernetics. Read it, then decide how it applies to your training.
_________________________
We Are Beautiful, Temporary Patterns

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#146314 - 04/03/06 08:06 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
alfbury Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/04
Posts: 9
great discussion everyone....Lots of very interesting and valid views...
I have skipped a few pages so sorry if i repeat any views...
First piece of advice.....Dont panic... It happens to everyone regardless of style..."show us your karate" and when you do they just throw you around...there is a great article on this website about "the mighty pinch" which deals with this very subject.
Its fair to question to ask what you are doing wrong but I guess the better question is...How long do i need to study Aikido before I can beat this guy? And the answetr is a long time....
IMHO If you learn BJJ you will be able to wrestle him into submission much quicker..(I have studied and submitted very heavy guys after only 3 years of BJJ).but this will not help your Aikido
Part of Aikido is to flow with their energies.example.. you try a wrist lock...It doesn't work but they have now moved in a way which allows you to try a projection...that doesn't work either but this leads to a...and so on...To do this takes amazing skill, practice and time.
Lastly an anecdote from a friend of mine who is a policeman...He said..."I had this wrist lock on this big guy but it did nothing....what was i doing wrong?" When he showed me the lock..a gooseneck type thing...he was doing it all right I said "did you break his wrist?" No?...Because if he really put that lock on he would have trashed the guys wrist....I truly believe he simply didnt crank it up enough...and when you play with your friends who you really dont want to hurt...you crank it up even less...I know its not a solution but its hopefully something to think about ..
Great posts
(everyone I read at least!!!)
Alf

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#146315 - 04/03/06 10:10 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: alfbury]
wristtwister Offline
like a chiropractor, only evil

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 2210
Loc: South Carolina
I had to skip out on that last post before I got to the "breakdown" techniques, but striking into the joints to collapse them is both good karate and jujitsu technique. Regardless of how big or strong someone is, there aren't muscles in the creases of the joints of the arms and knees, and striking to collapse them is a perfect method to break their balance and "move" the bigger people who don't move by conventional means.

If the person who is much larger is holding on to you, there is the old judo technique of grabbing the elbow from underneath and pulling it toward your center. Mechanically, it will cause them to break their balance, and you can throw or upset their balance further from there.

If you add a little pressure point work onto those techniques as well, I'm sure that it doesn't matter how big this guy is, you'll start him moving. It just depends on how much bear you can handle after you get him started...

If he's your friend, you might tell him ahead of the hitting techniques that you don't want to hurt him, but you will if he isn't going to cooperate... and when you strike the pressure points, use the protruding bone in your wrist to hit them.

_________________________
What man is a man that does not make the world a better place?... from "Kingdom of Heaven"

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#146316 - 04/07/06 06:14 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
quinn_hamblin Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/07/06
Posts: 10
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
While my first reccomendation is to simply try and avoid a confrontation with someone twice your size and muscle power, if you wish to use aikido techniques kote-gaeshi would probably be the most effective. Few people have strong wrists in that sense, and kote-gaeshi can be applied from every direction. Also, aikido is very hard to apply if the person is not actually trying to move/attack, as it works on the principle of blending with an oncoming energy, and it is mighty hard to blend with something stationery.

Just remember, aikido is no way to pummelpeople into submission, it is the way of harmony/love. If you want to make people bleed out of ther ears, then choose something to that effect. If you want to defend yourself with a minimum of damage to both attacker and attackee, then choose aikido.

I would also reccommend to your friend that he should possibly improve his diet and exercise levels.

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#146317 - 04/11/06 03:39 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: quinn_hamblin]
TheKen Offline
Member

Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 45
I am reading into it and I pick out the following that others have said.

1. You are not using your full body or his momentum (of which it seems there is none though) in this occasion.

2. You're technique may be good but your strategy is weak.

Ok so you have this big guy who knows you are going to do a wrist lock. Most locks work because you capture the person on the edge of or approaching the "point of no return". A person can lock their neutral position wrist to make it very hard to bend. Flex the muscles of the forearm and you give the person trying to apply it a stiff joint with no leverage to work with. I am guessing he has is arm strong arming you with a closed fist. One way to help out is with your thumb if he has a closed fist push down hard between the knuckles of his middle and ring fingers. by push down I mean along the axis of his arm/radial bone. This effectively causes pain and leads to the closed fist oppening. At this point his forearm muscles lax and you know have his whole hand and extended fingers to use for leverage for a wrist or finger joint lock.

When you practice a manuever you can either practice it in a controlled situation where you opponent is cooperative to allow you to practice the technique or you are in a free spar situation where you must use STRATEGY to apply the element of suprise to apply your technique.

Also as a suggestion since it seems you are much smaller than this big guy have you tried a breakfall with the grab so that instead of just your dropping weight you can incorporate it with a torque from the swinging motion of the breakfall. The effect will be like you are swinging on his arm and unless you are less than 100 lbs that should be enough kinetic energy to offset anyones balance if they are not expecting it.

Ken

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#146318 - 04/11/06 05:45 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: TheKen]
SpeedyGonzales Offline
Member

Registered: 08/16/05
Posts: 320
Quote:

Also as a suggestion since it seems you are much smaller than this big guy have you tried a breakfall with the grab so that instead of just your dropping weight you can incorporate it with a torque from the swinging motion of the breakfall. The effect will be like you are swinging on his arm and unless you are less than 100 lbs that should be enough kinetic energy to offset anyones balance if they are not expecting it.

Ken




Interesting idea...I never heard of this, is this an official technique or just an idea for application, and did you think of this or is it taught at your dojo?

I an just a beginner so I have no idea if this is taught in our dojo

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