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#146249 - 05/19/05 01:57 PM cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz
Ninjasaurus Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 73
my friend is a little shorter than me but hez twice my weight and he is a football player and pretty much when we wrestler if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething and he grabz my armz and throwz me around like a ragdoll and only way i evar win is if i can squeeze out of his holdz and get behind him 2 choke him and that isnt aikido.

i tried all different aikido stuff and it nevar workz hez 2 strong and big and he doesnt just stand there letting me do the move, if i lower my center and try to get him off balance he just pushes me down or picks me up swingz me around by my arms.

he knows that i go for his wrists so he makes sure i dont move them when i grab them.

what should i do when i wrestle against him????????

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#146250 - 05/19/05 02:25 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Shitokan Offline
Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 31
Loc: The Bahamas
Well all i can say is do what is practical and what works. i am almost 150 percent sure that there is something more that u could learn in akido that would help u. also try to incorperate techneques from other systems but stay true to your akido still ya c.
_________________________
Yee Yi Yin Chi (Let the mind lead your Chi.)

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#146251 - 05/19/05 03:53 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
IMHO, I suppose there are several lessons that you might draw from this. One is that wrist locks, which can be very effective, have there place. It is not that a lock, once applied will not be effective, is learning when you can do it effectively. There is a quantom leap from becoming proficient in the mechanics of technique practiced in the dojo and applying it successfully in the street.

For what it's worth, you should also go back and read your post to begin with. Does it seem like "wrestling" with a 240 lbd football player would allow you to effectively employ a range of aikido techniques? You could certainly find yourself in a real brawl with a big football player some day right? I doubt that in that situation he would willingly offer you his wrist in order for you to apply a wrist lock either.

No offense, but the techniques did not fail you, you have failed to see when they are to be proplerly used. I takes time to get this stuff.

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#146252 - 05/19/05 09:05 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
rupert Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 24
Loc: Seongnam, South Korea
First, be thankfull he is your friend. Second, at least you have something to go on - work on those chokes!


Edited by rupert (05/19/05 09:05 PM)

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#146253 - 05/19/05 09:29 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ninjasaurus]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Short answer: more practice

Longer answer:
1. Use his momentum
2. Get your timing and entry right
3. Do not use force against his force
4. Use feeling and sensitivity
5. MOVE
6. Draw and extend him out to get proper off-balance - understand and use the 12 points of kuzushi
7. Do not try to "wrestle" - see #3
8. Do not "try" to apply a technique - just move
9. Use atemi AND kuzushi
10. Maintain your own posture and stance

Chokes aren't aikido? They're in the Yoshinkan syllabus...

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#146254 - 05/24/05 01:29 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
I understand what your situation is like.
The basic rule of thumb is - everything else being equal with any two people - the larger one wins.
So the balanceing act is in how much skill the smaller one has to equal or overcome the heavier one.

It is good that you have the idea of what will and what will not work. Some fools think that since they know something of the arts that they are capable of more than they really are.
Great to have a tough friend to keep you humble.

If you are working with arts for selfe defense then you would most likely be able to stay away or out run a situation like that.
If you are in the arts for point or contact fighting then stay in your weight group until you get more experience.

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#146255 - 05/24/05 09:41 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Diga]
nekogami13 V2.0 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/10/04
Posts: 2643
Loc: Texas, USA
I'm sorry to have to delete your post neko.... so far he has shown himself not to be on this forum, even if his posts have been somewhat immature on the other forums.

It is a legitimate issue though.... so your comment is somewhat out of line.

Ignatius


Edited by eyrie (05/24/05 10:10 PM)
_________________________
I'm sorry, I was just imaging what you would look like with duct tape over your mouth

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#146256 - 05/25/05 02:11 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
I agree with eyrie and I am a Tae Kwon Do guy but I have studied tai chi also and it seems that you are using a linier approach to this match up where you are at a huge disadvantage. Circles big or small let him come to you and use his movements against him. He knows what you plan to do so let him make a mistake and change you tactics and stop trying so hard, loosen up and free your mind and let it happen.

If a joint lock on the wrists fails you then try a finger lock or lock an elbow. I have used these techniques on big guys and they tap out very fast. Pinkie locks are the best.

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#146257 - 06/25/05 12:22 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
fightclub Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 10
Hi there. It is not surprising that your joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person. This is one of the reasons why some later Aikido styles were modified. There are other times when these moves are ineffective like when a policeman tries to bend a druggies wrists they feel no pain b/c they are so high.
Also if you wait until the person has locked their hold on you then your timing is off and you can't afford to waste time trying to bend their wrist.

I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective. Aikido has some good points, but keep in mind that initially it is not slef defense oriented, it is mostly forms that lead into defensive attacks later on.
When I started out in Aikido I was once attacked by a suspect who we caught in our store, and when I went to lock the door until the police came, he basically exploded with fists of fury from the side(i was stupid enough to leave myself exposed). Anyway, I did not use anything "Aikido" on him, my friends just pushed some carts into him, and that ended the attack. Honestly, I never felt Aikido helped me in a real life situation, at least not at that level. I now study KRAV MAGA, a highly effective combat style. It's simple, economical self defense, that is effective. You don't waste energy trying to "flow" and bend with your opponent, you simply take natrual, instinctive moves and learn to scientifically apply them in a direct aggressive manner. I have only trained for a year, and i feel so confident, that I do not invite violence.

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#146258 - 06/26/05 01:56 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: fightclub]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
fightclub,

Quote:


It is not surprising that your joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person. This is one of the reasons why some later Aikido styles were modified. There are other times when these moves are ineffective like when a policeman tries to bend a druggies wrists they feel no pain b/c they are so high. Also if you wait until the person has locked their hold on you then your timing is off and you can't afford to waste time trying to bend their wrist.





Are you saying that because joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person they were modified by some aikido styles? What, other than personal anecdotal evidence, do you have for making such a claim? Which styles? How were they modified?

I had a big burly policeman (senior constable) turn up to my class on Friday, wanting to do aikido lessons. For his benefit, I demonstrated a few simple joint locks (nikyo and sankyo) which I quite effortlessly applied on him, from a really strong grab. Several times, I either dropped him to the ground instantly, or got him up onto his toes, quite easily - without the need for applying undue pain compliance. And seeing I was about half a head shorter than him, and about 40kg lighter, let's just say, he was wide-eyed and paying very close attention for the remainder of the lesson.

Joint locks work - if you know how. Most people think it's a wrist technique. It's not. If you don't know how to lock the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and center all at once, then of course they're not effective. Well, actually, it's not that the lock is ineffective, but your execution of the technique is not effective.

Quote:


I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective. Aikido has some good points, but keep in mind that initially it is not slef defense oriented, it is mostly forms that lead into defensive attacks later on.




I'm curious, how long did you do aikido for, and to what level? I've been doing it for 15+ years and the more I do it, the more self-defense oriented I see it is. Bearing in mind that "self-defense" does not necessarily mean "kicking the other guy's a$$".

Quote:


I now study KRAV MAGA, a highly effective combat style. It's simple, economical self defense, that is effective. You don't waste energy trying to "flow" and bend with your opponent, you simply take natrual, instinctive moves and learn to scientifically apply them in a direct aggressive manner. I have only trained for a year, and i feel so confident, that I do not invite violence.





Whilst I do not disagree than Krav is a simple, economical and effective method of H2H combat, I disagree with your analysis. The strategy and tactics of Krav are very different to aikido. But it does not make aikido less simple, economical or effective. It's a totally different methodology, and you are comparing apples to oranges.

I also don't see how one "wastes energy trying to flow and blend".

Can you please explain to me, how you arrived at this conclusion? I'm just really intrigued.

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