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#146269 - 06/30/05 08:58 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: fightclub]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I only know what I know [about Yoseikan] from what I read.

Who says there are no kicks and punches in aikido? What is uke doing, if not how to punch, kick, grab? If uke does not learn/know how to attack properly (and by extension, how to protect themselves thru ukemi), how can they provide tori with the necessary "input" to perform a technique?

Like I said, Mochizuki did not add anything that didn't already exist. He simply changed the focus of practice to be all inclusive, rather than segregated. Such is the danger in any martial art, because the art has to seek a balance between imparting universal principles and that of enlarging the technical repertoire.

According to the Founder, aikido is a matter of life and death. Train it as such. As for being more "devastating" than Krav, I'm not sure that is the philosophical intent underpinning the principles of the art, although I'm pretty sure it can be, if one intends to use it for that purpose.

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#146270 - 06/30/05 11:18 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ubermint]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I tapped a 250 lb strong male out at 160 lb. He was heaiver , stronger, and had fighting experience albeit not ground fighting but none the less the defies saying that just because he is this and that much bigger stronger then me groudn fighting is just like stand up fighting technicality and finese win over brute force.

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#146271 - 07/01/05 03:44 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Intrepidinv1 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/05
Posts: 308
Loc: NC, USA
You bring up a problem that would be there no matter what your style was. Wrestling, boxing, whatever. Size and strength does matter. Although, as some have mentioned I have seen smaller BJJ guys beat bigger ones on numerous occasions. I have studied a lot of martial arts for over 20 years and have some practical experience. Aikido has many practical aspects but it has to be used in the right application. Any martial art should be practiced in a manner to prepare for real resisting opponents. The concepts are there and maybe a little harder to apply then some martial arts. The founder of Aikido stated that in combat, Atemi (striking) was 70% and technique was 30. That is something to think about when applying Aikido to a violent encounter. I think I'm going to continue to study Aikido to dig out the concepts that I can apply to combat but I wouldn't highly recommend to a beginner looking for practical self defense. Aikido is more mentally challenging then some arts. But it's not your hard core combat unless you blend in other styles and striking techniques. You have to be able to flow from one system to another depending on the combat situation. I've used Aikido principles numerous times in real fights, I know they can work. But I've fell back on grappling and striking too! Bruce Lee was talking about blending arts, grappling, striking before all this MMA started. He was way ahead of his time. Study it all!

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#146272 - 07/01/05 05:49 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#146273 - 07/01/05 09:50 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ubermint]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
I don't think you're the only one.

There a few different ineteresting discussions going on.

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#146274 - 07/01/05 10:41 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?




Each martial art is based on specific strategies and areas of specialization. The reasons for this being one of strategic combative engagement philosophy and teaching expediency. Otherwise, it would take a lifetime to learn the unlimited range of possible human movement, and another lifetime to master it.

Groundfighting is a distinct and worthwhile skillset to add to one's repertoire. However, let me qualify that IMVHO, Aikido is NOT based on a groundfighting paradigm or strategy, unlike BJJ or various styles of JJ which specialized in ground techniques. This is purely my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong.

Whilst some Aikido principles *can be* used in a groundfighting situation, it lacks a sufficient technical repertoire which would allow effective application against a skilled groundfighter, particularly one with a size and weight advantage - without having to resort to the use of atemi and other instinctual tactics that would otherwise be illegal in a legitimate groundfight bounded by specific rules of engagement.

Having said that, by all means, add groundfighting techniques to your repertoire. However, I would counter by saying that once you have acquired the *right attitude* and reasonable skills in Aikido, one has no need to resort to additional tactics for the ground. I say this because the strategy of Aikido requires one to be (standing) in the right place at the right time, so that you are not taken to the ground.

Of course we can surmise all the "what ifs" ad nauseum, so if you happen to be taken to the ground, then you had better quickly get up on your feet!

In other words, first focus on mastery of what the art provides in terms of its philosophy, strategy and technical repertoire and you have no need for others, although, additional knowledge and skill in other areas of specialization would not hurt either.

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#146275 - 07/02/05 10:05 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ubermint]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I have practiced Aikido for 4 years. I've also wrestled for 1 year. The reason ... is because I agree without at least fundamental knowledge of ground fighting your finished. The principles of Aikido can also still be applied on the ground it's just not normally seen that way.

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#146276 - 07/03/05 07:18 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

Quote:

Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?




Each martial art is based on specific strategies and areas of specialization. The reasons for this being one of strategic combative engagement philosophy and teaching expediency. Otherwise, it would take a lifetime to learn the unlimited range of possible human movement, and another lifetime to master it.

Groundfighting is a distinct and worthwhile skillset to add to one's repertoire. However, let me qualify that IMVHO, Aikido is NOT based on a groundfighting paradigm or strategy, unlike BJJ or various styles of JJ which specialized in ground techniques. This is purely my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong.
Whilst some Aikido principles *can be* used in a groundfighting situation, it lacks a sufficient technical repertoire which would allow effective application against a skilled groundfighter, particularly one with a size and weight advantage





Quote:

- without having to resort to the use of atemi and other instinctual tactics that would otherwise be illegal in a legitimate groundfight bounded by specific rules of engagement.

Having said that, by all means, add groundfighting techniques to your repertoire. However, I would counter by saying that once you have acquired the *right attitude* and reasonable skills in Aikido, one has no need to resort to additional tactics for the ground. I say this because the strategy of Aikido requires one to be (standing) in the right place at the right time, so that you are not taken to the ground.




But here you seem to be saying that with Aikido you will never be taken down, which is obviously false.

Quote:


Of course we can surmise all the "what ifs" ad nauseum, so if you happen to be taken to the ground, then you had better quickly get up on your feet!




Yes, but what if you're under side control? After a takedown, you go immediately to a controlling position.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#146277 - 07/03/05 07:48 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
You are making a broad generalization here and drawing a flawed conclusion.

Note I said, "reasonable skill". I guess this begs the question, what is "reasonable"?

In my experience, it is hard to takedown someone with 8-10 years continuous training. Even harder still if you can grab and take hold of someone with 15-30 years experience.

Like I said, we can debate all the "what if" scenarios we like, the bottomline is it depends on one's skill level, ability and experience - and that of your opponent (other variables remaining constant of course).

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#146278 - 07/04/05 04:59 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
It's going to be hard (but still doable) to take down someone with 15 years experience in anything. That doesn't make it an efficient use of time for learning shot defense.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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