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#146259 - 06/26/05 10:07 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
Aikido can be very effective in SD. But it takes lots of training and is a pretty complex art.

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#146260 - 06/27/05 08:50 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: Ninjasaurus]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
First you should use atemi in setting up your techniques. You do not neccasarily have to strike him but merely distract him maybe pinching, digging a knuckle inside his ribs, etc. Second remember good kuzushi. Also follow through with yoru technique and remained centered but yielding. If he pushes you and your centered and you fall over you have failed to blend wit that energy. You are probably letting your ego get in your way of applying the principles of aikido. Remember everything doesn't happen like in the dojo make it work for yourself.

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#146261 - 06/29/05 08:40 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
fightclub Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 10
Hello eyerie.

I did study Yoseikan aikido for 3 years. That hardly makes me an expert, but then i also learned a lot. In that system, at least under the quality intructor i had, we did not do self defense so much as learn the basics. this involved turning the body, and learning how to apply the different locks, twists etc.

I am not suggesting that these moves never work, but that they don't work effectively under certain conditions, or at least that the probability of their effectiveness is lessened by larger, stronger people, who can resist you, drugged individuals who feel little pain, very experienced fighters etc.

In a real life combat situation, it is very messy, explosive, and fast. Your opponent is not static. He is moving, trying to harm you, and is pumped up. It would take a very high level of skill to use such moves in this case. My claims are based on experience, my teacher's lessons, and the feedback of police that he taught.

Yes, Aikido has been modified by some of Ueshiba's students. that is how Yoseikan came about. Minoru Mochizuki , the founder of the system, modified some aspects to meet the challenges of modern arts like SAVATE, and BOXING. It is a style that is akin to AIKI JU JUTSU. The Aikikai style of Aikido that is taught today, with very soft motions, is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught.

Uesheba attained to his level after a lifetime of hard, physically rigorous practice of kendo, jujutsu, etc.

All I'm saying is that for self defense, you don't want to gamble with a tool that is probably not going to work.

In Aikido demos, the attacker is usually not that aggressive, and he knows how to roll and fall. Also he is usually co-operative and does what he is expected to do. This may look very lovely, but it is not for real. Sorry, that's just the way it is. If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.

Believe me, I loved Aikdo with my life. I thought it was THE ULTIMATE martial art. And to be honest I still respect it, and I still think that it has some good things. But i would not depend on it for my life in a street battle.

Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.

Krav Maga is a scientific martial art. It gets the job done. And while it may not have all the trappings of choreography and finesse that Aikido has, it WORKS!

In 3 years of Aikido, I couldn't defend myself with what I learned...oh sure I could use those moves in a controled setting, but I don't think a real life fight would be won with Aikdo alone.

I agree that Aikido has noble intentions, but it is not realisitic. Your mugger, or your girlfriend's rapist does not want to be your friend. Evil must be restrained, but sometimes it has to be beaten into submission, or you or your loved one will die.

I must stress that as a Krav practioner, I don't feel cocky, or pick fights. I'm not paranoid, or aggressive. I feel confident, and would try to solve a problem and not fight. But if I HAD TO fight, I feel that I could survive.

Anyway, welcome your feedback.

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#146262 - 06/29/05 10:17 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: fightclub]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
Aikido is just as realistic as any martial art. The only problem is that most of the styles and their teachers have dilluted it into mere meditative practices or "self improvement arts" much like kendo and a lot of tai chi styles. To make Aikido work you have to be willing to train hard but you must also see it in a realistic manner. You have to teest your skills in different situations and learn how to actually move. Most styles of aikido teach defenses that are too long and flowery to actually work. My suggestion would be to work on making those movements into the shortest most economical ways possible. Proper knowledge of Aikido from what I've seen is much more devastating than what I have seen krav maga practitioners doing, not that I'm bashing the style it does dependn on the person

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#146263 - 06/29/05 10:36 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz [Re: fightclub]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective.




For what it's worth, a few short comments. This is less about aikido as a system, as it is about the use of small joint locks. I am not an aikido practitioner but a student of it's cousin - hapkido.

The use of wrist locks, are not necessarily used for "self defense" in the pure sense, but often also as "pain compliance" techniques. That may seem like a subtle distinction. Personally, there is a fundemental difference that reflects a mindset for their appropriate application.

As they are often viewed as "gee wiz" stuff they tend to get a disproportionate amount of attention. Perhaps even within aikido itself, although the art is much broader than that.

This has come up on the forums often so several months ago I went through my hapkido BB requirements and counted the number of "wrist locks" I had been taught and had to be proficient at. It also important to understand that the "wrist lock" was actually the end product of a complete technique. These amounted to a grand total of about 30. This was only about 10% of over 300 required techniques that included throws, various weapons defenses and ground work to name a few. The "wrist locks" themselves were primarily trained as counters to grabbing attacks which, when properly understood, means that the attacker has made himself vulnerble to a locking counter - amongst many other defensive actions. As with any other technique in a martial arts repretoire they have their time and place.

As a lapsed aikidoka and now a practitoner of KM I'm certain that you view your aikido training differently. We grow when we view the things we're taught critically which is how we find out what works for each of us as individuls or not. It is, after all, a personal journey.

I certainly can't begin to explain why after three years aikido training it 'did not work for you'....but I can say that I have heard the same thing about karate, judo, etc., etc. For each person that a given art may not work for, I can probably find 50 people for whom it does work just fine. This is by no means a criticism, that's just the way it is.

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#146264 - 06/29/05 10:45 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: fightclub]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
fightclub,

You asked for feedback, so can I submit the following observations and comments (in good faith of course!)?

1. You have the best of 3 worlds in Yoseikan budo. Mochizuki Snr was a direct student of Kano, Funakoshi and Ueshiba, and as a result, Yoseikan, reflects the philosophy, principles and techniques of all 3 pioneers.

2. You say you did 3 years of Yoseikan, but you do not mention your total budo experience. It is said that it takes at least 10 years to master the basics of any martial art. Thereafter, it becomes refinement of the basics to the level where it becomes subtlely natural movement.

3. I agree that techniques will not work effectively under certain conditions, and that there will be degrees of effectiveness depending on the multitude of variables in a confrontation. This is partly due to the focus on "making a technique work", usually under conditions that are not naturally suited for that particular application.

The whole purpose of training and practice is to increase one's level of experience in applying technique effectively under a specific set of conditions. Therefore, it becomes the role of the uke to provide that set of conditions to constantly push your boundaries.

4. I do not disagree with your analysis of a combat situation. However, can I say that with practice comes experience, with experience ability, with ability effectiveness. This is called "skill" or "gong-fu".

5. Nothing is new under the sun. Can I suggest that Mochizuki Snr did not modify anything, but merely consolidated the principles and techniques from the arts that he had learnt. Therefore, the more you learn and the more you know, the better equipped you are to deal with a broader spectrum of situations and scenarios.

6. Whilst I agree that a lot of what passes of as "aikido" today is far from desirable, I strongly disagree with your criticism of its "teaching methods". I teach both kids and adults aikido. Whilst it is extremely easy to apply techniques with force, it teaches the practioner nothing of the use of footwork, body alignment, use of center, relaxed extension, etc. etc. etc. So to say that "soft motions...is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught", is at best a perspective born of limited experience and ignorance of the art.

7. I submit that the self-defense applications in aikido are not immediately apparent to the casual observer or to students who have not yet mastered the basics. However, self-defence isn't about "stand and fight", which is usually the course of last resort.

8. Aikido demos have nothing to do with training practice and applied ability. You are associating a demo situation with a confrontational situation. Not the same thing. The emotive content is totally different. A demo is exactly that - a display of the suggestive potentiality of applied aikido. A confrontation IS applied aikido. Two different things.

None of my students are co-operative to say the least, yet, I have the ability to manipulate their center and apply techniques. Most of the time they have no idea what I'm going to do, how I do it or if they are going to roll or do a face plant, until the last moment. Of course it doesn't look pretty - for them.

Quote:

If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.




9. I would suggest that you have not yet begun to scratch the surface of aikido if you believe that aikido should be a "ground and pound" style.

Quote:

Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.




10. Again, this is a shallow analysis based on limited experience and surface level of understanding of the art.

11. Again, I do not disagree that Krav (as taught and used by the IDF) is a scientific art and "gets the job done". So is jujitsu. You are belabouring the point. This is not an argument as to which art is better (or which is the "ultimate" art). The topic is about not being ble to apply aikido techniques to someone who has a significant size, weight and strength advantage.

If you are suggesting "take them to the ground and finish them", I would love to see how you handle someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you. On the ground, the bigger person will win. It doesn't matter whether they know anything or not. All they have to do is sit on you.

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#146265 - 06/30/05 12:29 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


If you are suggesting "take them to the ground and finish them", I would love to see how you handle someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you. On the ground, the bigger person will win. It doesn't matter whether they know anything or not. All they have to do is sit on you.




That...is possibly the most ignorant opinon of groundfighting i've ever heard.

I am 150 pounds and can go tap for tap with guys literally twice my size on the mat, and i'm nothing special at all.

I've seen my coach, at approx. 160# tap out champion collegiate wrestlers.

Of course there's also many hours of footage showing skilled groundfighters beating fatasses.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#146266 - 06/30/05 01:03 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ubermint]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Thank you! My point exactly!

My ignorant opinions don't count. Skill and experience do.

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#146267 - 06/30/05 08:03 AM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: Ninjasaurus]
Chanters Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/16/04
Posts: 559
Loc: Manchester, UK
I find it very difficult practising with a partner who does not know aikido.

1. I don't think they'd appreciate atemi to the face or know how to protect themselves against one.

2. The surroundings in which you might be would not be suitable to be throwing someone.

3. Why would you want to slam your friend into the ground particularly if they do not know how to breakfall safely?

I believe you'd lose many friends if you went ahead and tried applying an aikido technique on them.

I've tried practicing my techniques in the back garden with my boyfriend who does judo but I don't want to ram my fist or palm of my hand into his face to take his balance and focus and I don't want to throw him into the floor. Wrist or other joint applications just hurt him too much. Call me soft but I don't have the heart to inflict pain on my friends or loved ones!

Quote:

he knows that i go for his wrists so he makes sure i dont move them when i grab them.




You shouldn't be grabbing anything. You need to make sure you take balance and keep your opponent off balance whilst executing the technique.

In conclusion, I think it is potentially too dangerous to apply an aikido technique on an non threatening individual. I believe aikido is only effective against a real threat as you're less likely to mind executing atemi and throwing them into the ground.

Chanters
_________________________
Chanters

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#146268 - 06/30/05 03:42 PM Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 [Re: eyrie]
fightclub Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 10
Thanks for your response.

Yes, I agree with much of your response.

I was thinking about it more, and I realized I was making a perhaps undue comparison with Krav and Aikido.

To be fair, Aikido is a powerful martail art. I remember doing really aggressive bear hugs on the sensi's wife during practice, and her escapes were so effective, i just couldn't believe it.

Also my Sensei, at the time, could make me fall to the ground without even a seeming touch! And his leg locks were like an iron vice.

How do you know about Aikido Yoseikan?

I perhaps jumped to conclusions too fast.

I respect your knowledge, and welcome your input more.

Always good to learn. I learned for three years, and I had a great teacher. I did do some Judo and Karate in the Yosekian Budo system. Had I continued, I would have seen more, and understood more.
I think Yoseikan Aikido is fairly realistic. As I understand it, Mochizuki Sensei did add some more elements like Karate kicks, and punches to make the system more combat effective. And of course he included lots of Judo elements.

When my teacher first viewed Aikido, he said that it looked like martial choreography, but Mochizuki sensei told him, "Don't worry, THIS Aikido is different" meaning more combat effective.

if you go to the Aiki News website you can read about Sensi Patrick Auge, and the interview with him. He talks about these things. He was an Uchi deshi for 7 years in Japan under Mochizuki's tutilege.

Aikdo more devestating than KRAV??? Are you sure? Maybe in a Steven Segal movie! haha.

Peace.

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