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#145465 - 05/18/05 10:40 AM 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ...
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
A fundamental topic to Karate.

start here:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=312
or more detailed:
http://www.geoffthompson.com/guest_writers/IanAbernethy/Guest_Writers_Iain_Abernethy_page11.htm

I've always thought of the 'Jutsu' as the science and the 'Do' as the character development. They have to coexist in the same dojo together for successful karate don't they? I never thought of it as ok, the jutsu people over here in this dojo verses the do people over there in that one. I'd think that a dojo is a bit more complex than having one or the other. Isn't the 'Do' aspect a foundation to the jutsu? For kids, I'd like to think they are building character at a much faster rate than (suppossedly)killer technique. The emphasis can gradually shift to jutsu as the student advances in maturity and rank. How well that balancing is done depends on the Sensei and the attitude of the student.

your turn...dozo...

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#145466 - 05/18/05 10:53 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: Kintama]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
This one could go either way, kind of like the chicken or the egg.

My personal opinion (not any more correct, just different) is that learning the "jutsu" first, develops the "Do".

The study of learning the technique, the concentration and attention to detail required, the making your body strong, and the confidence that comes with all of that; I think that lays the foundation for the "Do" of Karate.

I can not say how this applies to children, as I do not teach them. I do however have a careful screening process for my students. They generally need to have some character traits and moral fibre before I feel confident in teaching the "jutsu". For them the "Do" becomes a very vauable and rewarding after effect.

Page
_________________________
Medical Advisor for the Somolian National Sumo Team

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#145467 - 05/18/05 11:48 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: BuDoc]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
That's true. Perhaps with adults, the relationship between the two is more fluid and learned in parallel. With kids, I think the 'Do' should be a bit more dominent at first... plus it weeds out the impatient ones just looking to learn the 'moves'.

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#145468 - 05/18/05 12:21 PM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: BuDoc]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I agree with Budoc. First, if most of us were honest, we took up MA to learn how to fight. (Like I said, most, but not all.) The bad thing is that there are so many awful dojos, dojangs, training halls, whatever and wherever you train, that real technical ability gets confused with the guy punching from a kibadachi stance and who is wearing a BB after two years of practice.

Real techniques take time. With time there comes and evaluation of technique and why you train and what you get out of it. And after practicing for a decade or two, I think the character building process becomes apparent. Like musicians or carpenters who do their craft and practice the basics to implement the more sophisticated stuff later, you have to justify and develop a philosophy of training to answer these questions of why. If the simple answer would be to be able to cause harm, you would be lazy and get enough firearms to make any militant group happy.

There is more there than simple technique. There is more there than being an animal with a better set of claws. We are human, and development stems from self-realization and self-criticism. But, never forget, the original reason you took this stuff up was to be able to fight. That doesn't change, just your reason to continue does.

Regards,

-B

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#145469 - 05/18/05 04:52 PM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: Kintama]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Jutsu/Jitsu basically refers to the application of techniques

Do/Tao basically refers to the path one chooses for their life

Neither is superior to the other although many like to remind you that they practice a "Do" not a "Jutsu". There's a recent trend for some MA-ists to claim they practice a Jutsu believing that DO infers the philosophical/spiritual aspects only while they train Jutsu to fight "for real".

At any rate, anything can be "Do": the clergy, parenting, watching TV, crime - it infers commitment. Yes Jutsu can lead to Do.

Finally, anyone who reads the "You might be obsessed w/ MA" thread & can identify w/ @ least 10 items is probably on their way to "Do".

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#145470 - 05/19/05 07:36 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: hedkikr]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
The kanji for do speaks of a road to travel. Read my signature line, that's what the do really means, way until death. It became a part of my life, when I decided there was much more to it than kicking butt.

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#145471 - 05/20/05 12:50 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: hedkikr]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I think everyone answered what I was trying to get at...learning the science CAN develop character. but does the same go for kids?

what safeguards are there to prevent...hey wait a minute, doesn't this thought process sound familiar? lol

The safeguards (from training a coldheart-thug) you are implying would fall on the judgement from the Sensei instead of safeguards being built into the system.

why didn't Okinawa&Japan do it that way when they first made Karate public? maybe because there were too many children/students per teacher to make sure they weren't teaching dangerous stuff to dangerous people...that would make sense.

sorry for thinking 'out loud'. and thanks for clearifing.

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#145472 - 05/20/05 02:02 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Do and jutsu, I think you can do both at the same time.
Yes, I started because I wanted to learn to fight. I continue because of the do,but I still want to continually improve my fighting ability.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#145473 - 05/25/05 03:12 AM Re: 'Do' AND 'Jutsu' ... [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
kintama, I think the seperation between "do" and "jutsu" are the safeguard against unruly thugs truly learning the art. Or they were at some point. More and more, I've come to realize that different arts still tend to hold the real secrets of the art until the higher levels. This is even true for AKK. We have different stages of "beginnership" in AKK, but the real gist of our system isn't learned until brown and black belts. By holding the "do" until the later ranks, and teaching the "jutsu", you can learn about the character of a student, and develop it, or say no.

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