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#145322 - 05/17/05 09:32 PM vital points and time of day...
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
vulnerability of the vital points in relation to the time of day (as described in Bubishi).

Has anybody researched this or heard of any writeups? I'm curious if there is at least some evidence of the validity of this in a modern study.

I have no idea, but my intuition tells me that body is on it's own clock that does not necessaraly correspond to the rising and falling of the sun. For instance, if someone works night shift and sleeps during the day, would the same principals described in Bubishi still hold water?

also, I would think climate and environment adaptation would be factors. or would it make a difference at all?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

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#145323 - 05/18/05 08:59 AM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: Kintama]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
I don't think the points themselves are more (or less) "vulnerable". Remember that these "points" we're talking about are "portals" through which the body's "qi" can be affected.

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#145324 - 05/18/05 02:35 PM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: Kintama]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
I like topics like this. While I don't have a good answer, you force us to really think and explore the idea.

When I get some time, I'll try to post some review articles, in the mean time here is one idea.

Studies done in the 80's with subjects in sensory deprivation chamber for an extended period of time revealed that when deprived of external factors (daylight,time measurement,heat,cold,etc.) the bodies own circadian rhythyms develop a 23 hour cycle. Thats correct. 23 hours, not 24.

This doesn't nearly answer the question of pressure points and time of day. However it might suggest that IF pressure point manipulation is time dependent, it should make very little difference in the subjects personal artificial clock ie. nightshift,swingshift,time zone change etc.

That is as good as I can come up with for now. This is going to be a good research case though. Thanks Kintama

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#145325 - 05/18/05 09:55 PM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: BuDoc]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
From TCM theory, "qi" circulates in the body through the major organs, and the "energy" peaks and troughs in each of the major organs in 12 hour cycles.

We know from the theory that "dis-ease" and "dis-function" of the organ manifests in the organ when the "qi" is at its peak. E.g. most asthma attacks occur between the hours of 3-5am as that is the time period when "qi" peaks in the lungs.

We also know that we can borrow the energy from one meridian to assist another, or suppress the energy, thereby damming the flow to another meridian.

Knowing that the pressure points are access points to the meridians, and meridians the pathways to the internal organs, would it be fair to say that "hitting" certain points at certain times of the day would have a greater effect when the energy is at its peak or trough?

Note that simply "hitting" the points isn't necessarily going to have the desired effect, you need "qi" (and lots of it!) to substantially disrupt the body's "qi".

I'm not sure how one would correlate this with circadian rhythms, or if any such correlation exists.

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#145326 - 05/19/05 12:09 AM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: Kintama]
Demonologist437 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 159
Loc: Hodunk, Illinios
#1:"Vital Points" are NOT "Pressure Points". I'm sorry if you were misinformed and I mean no offense it's just you have no idea how much it makes my skin crawl when I hear that term used like that.
#2: Pressure points do follow a cycle of recouperation during the 24hrs. of the day called the Diurnal cycle(probably mispelled that but, meh..) and they can make the channels weaker if you try to attack the meridians during their respected times. However, because of the fact that you really can't plot when and how you're going to be attacked or forced into a self-defense situation, the time cycle doesn't really help much. Even for what it does, it's not a huge difference (or so I've heard and known of).
Even if you can't use the times however, you can use the cycle itself. Think of it like a second destruction cycle.
The destruction cycle goes Fire melts metal, metal cuts wood, wood penetrates earth, earth dams up water, and water puts out fire. The Diurnal cycle goes : Qall Bladder flows into Liver, Liver flows into Lung, Lung Flows into Large Intestine, Large Intestine flows into Stomach, Stomach flows into Spleen flows into Heart, Heart flows into small Intestine, Small Intestine flows into Bladder, Bladder Floes into Kidney, Kidney flows into Pericardium, Pericardium flows into Triple Warmer, and Triple Warmer flows back into Qall Bladder. Now I might have mixed up the Fires' (Heart-Sml. Intestine; Pericardium-Triple Warmer) but for the most part that is the cycle. It's used for knockouts just like the destruction cycle, but doesn't work off the elemental cycle. So you have a little more freedom for those situations where you just can't reach that next point elementally, but the Diurnal one is close by. Then again, as long as you follow kata, there should be no problem.

BTW: To elaborate about the difference between vital and pressure points, a vital point is essentially a weaker spot on the body, usually on the face like the eyes, nose, and throat. A pressure point is a place where two or more nerves cross and make an "X" or "Y" pattern or where the nerve ends. They are NEVER on bones, muscles, or joints but rather are next to them. Pressure points are the only places on the human body where pain can be directly entered into the central nervous system, hence why it takes accuracy to activate them and are thus more efficient than brute strength.
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"Success is a process, not a destination. Have faith in your ability."~Bruce Lee

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#145327 - 05/19/05 08:18 AM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: Demonologist437]
madfrank Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/04
Posts: 93
Loc: UK
Hi


Yes it irritates me when ppl confuse vital and pressure points.

As to the cycles it is irrelevent in a fight.

The points have a cumulitive effect in whichever order you hit em.

If you look at all the theories diurnal, yin yang, time of day, extrodinary points etc

you will find you have all the possible combinations covered

so it is irrellevent in which sequence you attack them.

MF
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#145328 - 05/20/05 09:29 AM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: madfrank]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi all,

I'm currently reading a great book by a guy called Rand Chadwell who is part of the Dragon Society called the "Western Bubishi". It is available from www.dragonsociety.com.

The DSI have a very nice way of explaining the fight or flight nature of the body which they call the Body Alarm Reaction or B.A.R. It goes into a lot of detail about adrenaline dumps and there effect on the body. In the Western Bubushi, Mr Chadwell has a chapter on the the B.A.R reaction in relation to meridians. He notes that due to the increased activity of the heart and lungs in a combat situation puts the energetic states of the heart and lung meridians in an excessive state, making their points an ideal target.

Hope that this is not too far off topic, I just think its a far more practical approach to targetting points....You don't have to check your watch before fighting!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#145329 - 05/20/05 11:55 AM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: Gavin]
kempocos Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 516
Loc: flemington,nj,usa
Quote:

Hi all,

I'm currently reading a great book by a guy called Rand Chadwell who is part of the Dragon Society called the "Western Bubishi". It is available from www.dragonsociety.com.

The DSI have a very nice way of explaining the fight or flight nature of the body which they call the Body Alarm Reaction or B.A.R. It goes into a lot of detail about adrenaline dumps and there effect on the body. In the Western Bubushi, Mr Chadwell has a chapter on the the B.A.R reaction in relation to meridians. He notes that due to the increased activity of the heart and lungs in a combat situation puts the energetic states of the heart and lung meridians in an excessive state, making their points an ideal target.

Hope that this is not too far off topic, I just think its a far more practical approach to targetting points....You don't have to check your watch before fighting!





I have been a DSI member for a few years and know Rand you are corrrect the book is very good. He researched the information and offers MWM breakdowns for the TCM techniques. I am on my forth reading of the book , and still new things a sinking in.

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#145330 - 05/20/05 12:20 PM Re: vital points and time of day... [Re: kempocos]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
The book has completely blown me away to be honest, far more advanced than anything I've ever read before. The Dillman books I'd read just left me hungry for more information, this book as actually left me with an information overload (which is a great feeling!). I currently waiting on Advanced Martial Science to turn up....I'm like a kid waiting for a new toy everytime the post is deliverd.

Could you pass my thanks onto Rand for a fablous book, and for signing it for me!
_________________________
Gavin King
www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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