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#145126 - 05/18/05 05:29 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: kichigai]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I've never been trained by anybody who taught a code of conduct, except by rule of politeness in the dojo.

Sure I've read Funakoshi and several other Okinawan instructors. Just from memory was it Miyagi who wrote when hearing a group of attackers coming in the dark hide and let them pass, then follow them and if they're going to attack somebody else, strike them first.

If you take the time to search out 'sayings' you can find several answers.

The closest I think Isshinryu has is the 'code of karate' from the Bubishi which says 'The time to strike is when the opportunity presents itself' and of which Funakoshi included in his first 3 books.

As for what's a first strike, well Japan's strike on Pearl Harbour was a defensive one, responding to the USA's blockade of Japan, from the Japanese point of view.

How does one respond to a 'situation', there is no simple formula, we'll all respond as we feel we must, doing someting, doing nothing, striking first, counter striking, or screaming from the grave.

We're just human.

But the saying from the Bubishi seems rather appropriate to me.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#145127 - 05/22/05 01:56 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: Multiversed]
Midnightcrawler Offline

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 184
Loc: England

In answer to your question (at least at face value). No I have never been involved in a physical altercation during my adult life. I would personally define that as having never been involved in a fight.

However, if as many of you would seem to define a fight as having already started at the point where voices are raised, then I would have been involved in many fights, but have chosen to walk away rather than do harm to a fellow human being. Some may view this as being cowardice, I take the view that it is common sense. This is on the basis that; 1) I do no harm to another, 2) I have no harm done to me, 3) There is no chance of me being prosecuted by the law & 4) I cannot be subject to a revenge attack, such as I have outlined in my previous postings.

You see, I have spent a long time thinking the LONG TERM situation through and analysing the LONG TERM ramifications. As a result of my deliberations have made a personal policy decision that for me there is no first strike option. You see, until a strike is thrown its all just words. If someone was to refer to me as being a 'razor backed, mother f-----g son of a [censored]' why should I take offense? They are not attacking me, just expressing an opinion, one I do not aggree with, but nontheless just an opinion. We in England live in a democratic society, where opinions can be freely expressed and if I were to lash out on the basis of a dissagreement over opinion, I would be seeking to act as a dictator, enforcing my opinion onto others. Totally unaceptable.

In regard to your assertion about being 'bully safe'. Unfortunately schools do exist which not only teach the pre-emptive strike but poitively encourage it, foolishly in my opinion. One such school being the highly disreputable Bushido (B.A.M.A. (UK)) in England. Such is the crazy nature of this martial farce and the madmen and women teaching and attending this school, that it makes me ashamed to be English. Their membership could never attain any moral high ground in anything.

God only knows; Really.

#145128 - 05/23/05 05:36 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
PineForest Offline

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Nebraska
There is no first attack in karate:

I've got to think this is a state of mind rather than an absolute--albeit a very important state of mind. The mindset of a karate-ka ought not be a lust for action or quick to provoke a confrontation. Rather, all possible solutions to resolve conflict should be exhausted before using physical means (including those that may elicit the ego bruising "chicken" term). But when all else fails and physical assault is unavoidable, the way of the intercepting fist is completely reasonable.
I spanked you as a baby, and I'll spank you now.

#145129 - 05/25/05 04:18 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: PineForest]
Ives Offline

Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 691
Loc: the Netherlands
Sometimes someone entering your personal space/perimeter, (I do not mean any form of real estate ) is considered an offensive move. So an attack. Therefor you are mosttimes not the first to attack.
But I must say you really shows strength by not getting seduced to getting into a fight. Eventhough you are very competent in fighting.

#145130 - 04/01/08 11:12 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: Ives]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Bump! Anymore opinions on Funakoshi's words?
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#145131 - 04/01/08 11:46 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I seem to remember hearing it translated in a different way at some point, something like "in Karate the first strike gives no advantage"...anyone remember such a thing?

#145132 - 04/02/08 03:06 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Bossman Offline

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1785
Loc: Chatham Kent UK
Funakoshi also said "Techniques will occur when a void is found." There is a point where a cool head will always respond at the right time. You just know when an attack is inevitable.
supporting standards in the martial arts

#145133 - 04/02/08 03:43 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 604
Loc: London, UK
Zach, I believe you are thinking of Rob Redmonds ( re-translation of the Dojo kun and Niju kun. Can't remember exactly what it said but it may still be on his site.
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

#145134 - 04/15/08 06:01 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: nenipp]
Uchinanchu Offline

Registered: 02/09/06
Posts: 99
Loc: Okinawa, Japan
This is not just a "code to adhere to", but also (believe it or not), sound advice concerning self-defence. If you look at practically every single kata of Okinawan karate, regardless of style, they all start with defencive postures/blocks.
One of the main (combative) reasons for this, from what I've been taught, is that if you strike first, you are opening yourself up ie. exposing vulnerable target areas that otherwise would be protected if you stayed your hand, kept your guard, and waited for an opening (openent's attacking limb/exposed torso etc...) and then attack with your block/strike.
My simple understanding of a basic underlying principal of the Okinawan arts...
All streams flow to the sea because it is lower than they are. Humility gives it its power.

#145135 - 04/15/08 03:11 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: nenipp]
JAMJTX Offline

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Very simple, as I have always been told:
Rule #1: Each gets 1 move
Rule #2: The first to move loses

There is no first strike in karate. Unless of course you want to lose.

It is dealing with strategy, not philosophy about not starting a fight.

Edited by JAMJTX (04/15/08 03:11 PM)

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