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#145106 - 05/17/05 06:02 AM "Karate ni sente nashi"
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
"In karate there is no first attack." Famous quote by Funakoshi.

What is your take on this?Taken literally this would completely dismiss pre-emptive striking.Is that a good idea though? I don't think so.When someone has made a threatening move they have made the first attack whether they hit you or not.
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#145107 - 05/17/05 06:15 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
for me the threat could be verbal, physical or by intent.

Obviously the level of my response is where my karate comes in.

However karate is a response, preemptive striking is a response to a signal of attack. although i would have to feel very threatended to strike first.

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#145108 - 05/17/05 06:17 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
Celebrian Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 59
Loc: QLD Australia
I'd interpret that to mean....like, we talk about attack and defence, and if we are say, sparring someone, or in a dangerous situation somewhere, you never attack, you start the fight/strike in defence, to prevent the other person from hurting you. So, here you could say that In karate, there is no attack, everything is defence.

thats just my 2cents.

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#145109 - 05/17/05 06:42 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
still wadowoman Offline
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Registered: 04/10/04
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Quote:

"In karate there is no first attack." Famous quote by Funakoshi.

What is your take on this?Taken literally this would completely dismiss pre-emptive striking.Is that a good idea though? I don't think so.When someone has made a threatening move they have made the first attack whether they hit you or not.




I absolutely agree. Why wait for the attacker dictate what the first move will be? Someone verbally abusing me or threatening by word or deed to hit me has started the attack as far as I am concerned.

How I react would depend on the situation but I would not rule out striking pre emptively.
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#145110 - 05/17/05 07:24 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: still wadowoman]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
"Karate ni sente nashi" is the desired mindset of always trying to avoid or de-escalate situations.

while avoiding a fight, a "sen no sen" awareness is reasonable. which is attacking at the same moment your opponent attacks.

Literally, "sen no sen" means "initiative of initiative"

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#145111 - 05/17/05 10:02 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Words with more or less the same meaning :

'Do not be struck by others’
‘Do not strike others’
‘The principle is the peace without incident'

(Miyagi Chojun)

But I also like Mototbu's approach; when the fight is on, strike first and strike hard.

The duality is inherent to the Okinawan mindset to evade conflict for the purpose of personal gain, often related to status or material wealth.
If however the cause is just and the fight is on, Motobu's approach is the way to go.

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#145112 - 05/17/05 11:02 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Would this be analogous to the concept of 'killing their sword'?

Quote:

"Karate ni sente nashi" is the desired mindset of always trying to avoid or de-escalate situations.

while avoiding a fight, a "sen no sen" awareness is reasonable. which is attacking at the same moment your opponent attacks.

Literally, "sen no sen" means "initiative of initiative"



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#145113 - 05/17/05 11:26 AM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: harlan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Harlan, yes, but for Karate, it would be more like "killing the waza".

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#145114 - 05/17/05 12:48 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: SANCHIN31]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_2.htm

This is a good article on this topic. I share many of the same ideals.

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#145115 - 05/17/05 02:01 PM Re: "Karate ni sente nashi" [Re: AgenT]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I agree that the statement shouldn't be taken too literally, but all that aside; in a dangerous situation wouldn't the laws of your country (whichever that is) be of slightly greater importance than an old karate-do ideal?

I've sometimes tossed an idea into this same debate: what if Funakishi said so ("karate ni sente nashi") to remind his sparring-eager students what the original intention of kata techniques was?

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