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#144913 - 06/25/05 06:11 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:



I train other moves against resisting opponents. I'm not saying you can't do a wrist lock against a resisting opponent, although smaller joint manipulations are difficult in such a situation. I'm talking about a wrist throw, where you lock someone and purposefully overextend their wrist. Perhaps you could tell me how I can train this very useful move against someone who didn't know I was going to do the move, without injuring them every time? How can I tell it's going to work? I guess I could go out and pick a few fights but I'm not that stupid. (Some people in my Dojo have been put out of action for a number of lessons because their training partners forgot to tell them before the throw).

Judo removed a lot of moves from Jujutsu because of just this situation. Practicing this technique against a resisting opponent would result in a high rate of injury. I'd rather know the technique than not know it though, might come in handy sometime.




As I said, if you've never tested it on someone resisting then you are working entirely from theory. If you can't train it alive, it won't lead to effectiveness.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#144914 - 06/26/05 12:00 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
in my experience, judo can be street effective if people learn to adapt their techs for street situations. With its powerful takedowns, throws, chokes, and sweeps it can devestate an opponent. But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications. ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs. That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for. Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.

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#144915 - 06/26/05 03:24 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:



I train other moves against resisting opponents. I'm not saying you can't do a wrist lock against a resisting opponent, although smaller joint manipulations are difficult in such a situation. I'm talking about a wrist throw, where you lock someone and purposefully overextend their wrist. Perhaps you could tell me how I can train this very useful move against someone who didn't know I was going to do the move, without injuring them every time? How can I tell it's going to work? I guess I could go out and pick a few fights but I'm not that stupid. (Some people in my Dojo have been put out of action for a number of lessons because their training partners forgot to tell them before the throw).

Judo removed a lot of moves from Jujutsu because of just this situation. Practicing this technique against a resisting opponent would result in a high rate of injury. I'd rather know the technique than not know it though, might come in handy sometime.




As I said, if you've never tested it on someone resisting then you are working entirely from theory. If you can't train it alive, it won't lead to effectiveness.




So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?

Let me put it this way, a lot of people train fire drills if you stay/work in a building (I assume you aren't homeless). We don't practise these by setting fire to our buildings, we train it by pretending that the building is on fire. Why do we do this if we can't tell if it will work for real? Why do fire departments all over the world make this a requirement for fire safety? The reason is because apart from actually setting a building on fire, it's the next best thing. Some training is in case you need it. Ideally you'll never have to apply the training.

The training should work because it's based on a study of what worked when other people were in a real situation or it's based on simple mechanics which should work according to the laws of physics. Have you ever used a chemical based fire extinguisher on a real fire, if not how do you know it'll work? I don't base my training on blind faith, I know that according to the way the body works, it will likely have the effect I want. If it doesn't, I've got plenty of techniques I have trained against resisting opponents which I'm certain will work.

I'm certain that the fire department knows what it's doing, just as I'm certain I know why I'm training.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 03:30 AM)
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#144916 - 06/26/05 04:20 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications.




Name them and name the difference they would have made.
Quote:


ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs.




1: Hearsay is not valid evidence.
2: Even if legions of Samurai warriors had once long ago charged into battle, dismounted, and devestated invading mongols with Sankyo & etc., that wouldn't mean it could consistently produce skilled, tough fighters. The training method trumps the individual techniques, and when your training method is dead patterns you will get beaten by someone who practices more "limited" techniques in an alive manner. This was Kano's genius.
Quote:


That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for.




False conclusion. Training FOR something means nothing. You can "train for" any number of improbable situations, it won't mean that your Babboon Gang-Rape defense works.

Quote:


Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.




Fallacy: "Judo is a sport THEREFORE it is less effective for self defense". You need to provide a causal connection between the two.
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#144917 - 06/26/05 04:23 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?




No, i'm saying you should train your techniques with resistance, energy, footwork and timing...In other words, "Alive".

...Wait, before we proceed any further, you do know what aliveness is, right?

Have you watched Matt Thornton's little video?
_________________________
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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#144918 - 06/26/05 05:01 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
No I haven't watched it, could you post a link to somewhere I can find information on it?

I train randori and full contact striking sparring separately. Do you take that as alive training? I don't train all my techniques against resisting opponents because some can't be trained like that. I train most of them against resisting opponents though.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 05:02 AM)
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#144919 - 06/26/05 09:15 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote:

Quote:

in my experience, judo can be street effective if people learn to adapt their techs for street situations. With its powerful takedowns, throws, chokes, and sweeps it can devestate an opponent. But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications.




Like what? Aren't throws combat effective? What about chokes? Armbars? Those moves are "practicable". Moves that aren't practicable shouldn't be relied upon anyway, in a real situation.

Quote:

ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs.




WHO used them? What matters is whether YOU or I can use them, not some guy 100 years and 1000 miles away from here.

Quote:

That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for. Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.




An "art" won't do it's fighting FOR you. I think we can all agree upon that. Any techniques (dangerous or "sport" - which is simply a ridiculous distinction) will have to be performed by THE INDIVIDUAL and will be only as effective as the individual's ability to execute them. That said, what THEN becomes important is HOW they are trained.

Many arts cannot be trained in an alive manner because of the "alleged" danger of the moves in question. The individual will never completely develop skill in those techniques, if they cannot be practiced in the manner in which they will be executed, and that is, against a COMPLETELY resisting oppponent. Japanese jiu-jitsu (which the early judo guys overwhelmed at a Police Bujitsu contest) and Hapkido are two arts which contain just such technique. All that "deadly" technique in their "collection" simply means that, those fighters don't become nearly as SKILLED within it's use. So that argument is really a moot point.

Leo_E_49 wrote:
Quote:

So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?




Personally, I don't think anyone needs to go out and pick a few fights when you can up the intensity level of training with your own partners. That's really what his point was.


Quote:

Let me put it this way, a lot of people train fire drills if you stay/work in a building (I assume you aren't homeless). We don't practise these by setting fire to our buildings, we train it by pretending that the building is on fire.




But the FIRE department DOES train against real fire. They are the ones that have to fight it - not the people doing the "fire drills". All they are doing is leaving the scene. I can do that with people too in the circumstances of a real fight: just teach them to get up and walk away. That would be no problem would it? But, if they had to fight, that would be a completely different situation because the dynamics are COMPLETELY different - just as if they had to actually stay and fight the fire (as opposed to just leaving).

Quote:


The training should work because it's based on a study of what worked when other people were in a real situation or it's based on simple mechanics which should work according to the laws of physics. Have you ever used a chemical based fire extinguisher on a real fire, if not how do you know it'll work?




Again, I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Totally different dynamics.

Quote:


If it doesn't, I've got plenty of techniques I have trained against resisting opponents which I'm certain will work.




That's all his argument was about though. That was the whole point.

Quote:

I'm certain that the fire department knows what it's doing, just as I'm certain I know why I'm training.




Once again, the FIRE department DOES train against "live" fire. I see them do those exercises all the time taking buildings that are no longer used, setting them ON FIRE and then putting them out.


Cheers,

-John

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#144920 - 06/26/05 10:00 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
If u read my post JKogas, i did say judo techs can be effective in SD situations, but u have to modify them for SD situations, u can't grip a gi on the streets!!! I know that judo techs r effective, i've trained in it. Also u can know a tech will work if u don't go all through with it. I happen to know wrist breaks work cuz i have used it in SD. Any doctor can tell u that rotating a wrist through its full range of movement will break it, so its no stretch of the imagination if that if i go all the way with the tech it can hurt somebody. I mean how do special ops know they can snap someone's neck if they haven't gone through the whole range of motion? Or how can a soldier know that they can shoot someone accurately if they don't practice on live targets? Obviously locks must work cuz in joint-manipulating arts, injuries occur all the time even without going full through. Judo is not intended for the streets, it is sport-oriented. Other arts do focus on SD situations. Did i say that judo fighters couldn't win in a sport setting, i.e. the contest between the police and them. Winning in a sport setting does not mean superiority in a SD situation. And for ur info: The original Kodokan Judo school did not beat every JJJ school they went up against and were sometimes beat miserably. Also old school Kodokan Judo wasn't that much different from other JJJ schools except for a better systemization of techs and better use of physics.

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#144921 - 06/26/05 11:04 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote
Quote:

If u read my post JKogas, i did say judo techs can be effective in SD situations, but u have to modify them for SD situations, u can't grip a gi on the streets!!!




Yes I understand that. We train to grip only the body. Of course, people DO wear clothes on the street. I'd wager to say that you can grip the clothes that people wear. Naturally though, gripping the body within the clinch is where we place a lot of our attention.

ta_kuan_dao wrote
Quote:

I know that judo techs r effective, i've trained in it. Also u can know a tech will work if u don't go all through with it. I happen to know wrist breaks work cuz i have used it in SD. Any doctor can tell u that rotating a wrist through its full range of movement will break it, so its no stretch of the imagination if that if i go all the way with the tech it can hurt somebody.




"Knowing" is different than "doing" or, being "able to do".

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:


I mean how do special ops know they can snap someone's neck if they haven't gone through the whole range of motion?




They don't.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Or how can a soldier know that they can shoot someone accurately if they don't practice on live targets?




Different thing altogether.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Obviously locks must work cuz in joint-manipulating arts, injuries occur all the time even without going full through. Judo is not intended for the streets, it is sport-oriented.




Judo is an art. It's intention thus becomes the intention of the practitioner. If the practitioner "intends" to execute a throw on the street, then that is what it's intention is for. Sport/street BS debate, bears little significance.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Other arts do focus on SD situations. Did i say that judo fighters couldn't win in a sport setting, i.e. the contest between the police and them. Winning in a sport setting does not mean superiority in a SD situation.




What you're basically implying is this: "I might get my ASS kicked in when there are rules in place, but once there are no rules, then I will win".

That argument is based upon a premise that the "other" person doesn't understand how to fight dirty and, hasn't modified his technique for a no rules event. That's an ASSUMPTION. And its one that might not be good for one's health.

What "might" happen is, when there are no "rules", your lack of performance ability (since you "lost" in an event with rules - wihch theoretically, should be even EASIER considering that there are less variables for you to be concerned with) could get you hurt even MORE severely by the guy with superior performance ability. Following the line of reasoning there? It's something you MIGHT want to consider.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

And for ur info: The original Kodokan Judo school did not beat every JJJ school they went up against and were sometimes beat miserably.




Show me statistics.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Also old school Kodokan Judo wasn't that much different from other JJJ schools except for a better systemization of techs and better use of physics.




So what you're again basically saying is, the judo schools performed better because they had (your words) better systemization of techniques and better use of physics.

Thanks for making my argument.



-John

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#144922 - 06/26/05 11:22 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
OMG IM GOING TO CRY I JUST SPENT AGES COPYING QUOTES AND STUFF FROM GEOFFS BOOK, LOST IT ALL
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