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#144923 - 06/26/05 11:27 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Ok attempt number two.(Lost all heart)

Jkogas - The main reasons behind this are:

1.You can be dragged to the floor.

2.You are 'tied' to your opponent.

Jkogas, sorry for the short reply, I lost my long reply when I moved the book I was quoting from against the keyboard for a better view, and it hit F7 ! :-(

PS: Have you read any of Geoff's work? I HIGHLY recommend reading it if you train for self defence it may teach even you somthing!

Are you familiar with 'the line up'?
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"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#144924 - 06/26/05 11:57 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Mist wrote

Quote:

Ok attempt number two.(Lost all heart)

Jkogas - The main reasons behind this are:

1.You can be dragged to the floor.

2.You are 'tied' to your opponent.






Hi Mist. Attempt number two, lol. I hear you! I've done that a LOT of times. Question though, you said; "the main reasons behind this are..."

I am assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you meant, the reason behind "staying in boxing range".

For the record, I agree with that sentiment. To clarify my stance on "street fighting" in general: I prefer avoidance as I think that avoidance is almost always possible. That basically means, I'm going to put a LOT of distance between myself and potential trouble. MUCH more distance in fact than just "boxing range", lol.

However, sh*t happens. That's life. In those situations it's entirely possible that I could be facing someone not only BIGGER than me, but also a better striker. It's my opinion that we (as martial artists) should not assume that we're always going to be "better" at fighting than our opponents. IF my opponent is bigger and better, maintaining boxing range might just play right into my opponent's strengths and he could knock me out. If that were to happen, the decision to stay in boxing range (in retrospect) would not then have been the wisest decision.

It might thus be better to attack my opponent's strategy with a counter strategy. Basically, attacking striking with grappling and, conversely, grappling with striking. Particularly if my opponent is better at those than I am.

Quote:


Jkogas, sorry for the short reply, I lost my long reply when I moved the book I was quoting from against the keyboard for a better view, and it hit F7 ! :-(

PS: Have you read any of Geoff's work? I HIGHLY recommend reading it if you train for self defence it may teach even you somthing!

Are you familiar with 'the line up'?




Don't sweat it Mist! Its a pleasure to converse with you regardless. I am a fan of Geoff Thompson as he's a guy that gets it (understanding the need for grappling). I haven't read his books however. What I've gotten from him has occurred by way of internet forums, his website and email exchanges. Bright fellow there.


-John

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#144925 - 06/26/05 01:14 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Okay, the fire thing was a bad analogy. Apart from the spin on it that I wanted to put about surviving (escaping), rather than fighting. I'd love to know a way I can train those techniques against a resisting opponent, but the fact is I can't. I still enjoy knowing what they are and I like having them in case I need them. As far as my other techniques go, I'll keep training them against resisting opponents in the sure knowledge that they'll work under pressure. My training philosophy is based around developing a strong set of fundamentals and then expanding from there anyway. Without the core set, which I train in an "active" manner, the rest is quite pointless. I'd like to see those videos about aliveness posted earlier. To be honest I'll probably be moving to Judo training after I leave my current Jujutsu school because of availability issues, so I'll eventually be training under Kodokan randori rules anyway.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 01:24 PM)
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#144926 - 06/26/05 01:52 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Jkogas are you familiar with 'the line up' tactic? (Pre-emptive strike)

And if so what do you think of it in terms of SD?

On a different topic I understand you and agree with you on your training 'alive' beliefs for grappling that is. But for strikeing doesnt it become much more confusing?

(Doesn't the line between 'alive' and 'dead' training become much more blurred?)

For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?

I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt


Edited by MiSt (06/26/05 01:54 PM)
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#144927 - 06/26/05 06:39 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?




A drill which develops power and endurance. Hitting a punching bag, there is actual impact, and it develops the physical attributes associated with fighting (IE muscles).

Quote:


I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt




Completely different. Any good boxing coach will tell you, "go to the well" too many times and opponent becomes wise to you. In shadowboxing you want to cut down on the number of repeated techniques.
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#144928 - 06/26/05 07:19 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ok guys, I would like to respond to everyone’s posts and I will do so as I can. Please note that we all have our own viewpoints. That’s great and is as it should be. We’re all on different paths here. No disrespect is or will be intended.

Leo_E_49 – I have almost always seen things the same way that you do (from having read some of your posts). I’m quite certain that we’re a lot closer philosophically here than you might at first think. I’ll read your post and respond momentarily.


Mist wrote

Quote:

Jkogas are you familiar with 'the line up' tactic? (Pre-emptive strike)

And if so what do you think of it in terms of SD?




I can’t say that I’m familiar with it. I’ve just finished searching for it all over the internet and can’t find anything about it. Could you fill me in with a little info please?

Quote:

On a different topic I understand you and agree with you on your training 'alive' beliefs for grappling that is. But for strikeing doesnt it become much more confusing?

(Doesn't the line between 'alive' and 'dead' training become much more blurred?)

For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?




Well, understanding the definition of “aliveness” is always the first thing to do. Aliveness is having timing, motion and energy present within your training. In the case of a heavy bag, there isn’t really the aliveness (by definition) present. The bag doesn't HIT BACK, so there's no "energy" or resistance present. But right there, one could then say something like: “See, right there is a “dead” training method that is used for fight training all the time!” And, that would be true. The difference is (like with weight training), it’s a “dead” training method but, heavy bag training does NOT teach you how to fight. It (like weight training) only makes your fighting better by the development of specific attributes involved in fighting.

Heavy bag training makes a person as much of a fighter as would participating in dancing or weight training. They’re good to do, but they really don’t, in themselves, turn a person into a fighter. THAT is only going to happen with alive training. It’s the aliveness that develops the TIMING, so critical to being a competent fighter

Quote:


I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?




Shadow boxing won’t in itself, develop a person into a great fighter either. Shadow boxing is certainly more alive than kata, but energy from a resisting opponent isn’t present. Therefore by definition, it isn’t completely alive either. Liken shadow boxing to weight training and dancing. Ok for developing attributes, etc.

Quote:

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt





Kata is a predetermined and “fixed” pattern. Shadow boxing is never predetermined. Someone doing shadow boxing is never using a footwork patterned nor any predetermined set of attacks and defenses. They’re two different animals really.


Cheers!

-John

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#144929 - 06/27/05 06:53 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Yes but Jkogas the only difference I can see between hitting a bag and hitting an opponent is that the opponent moves :-/

Are you talking about the mental aspects of fighting?

I will just add this, I took Karate for 6 months years ago, and we sparred ONCE in 6 months !

I do Judo now and from day one we sparred, its great :-)

Is the only difference between the people in these clubs (providing none cross-train) is there mental attitude towards fighting or is there more?
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#144930 - 06/27/05 06:19 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Yes but Jkogas the only difference I can see between hitting a bag and hitting an opponent is that the opponent moves :-/




Bags don't fight back. The opponent punches, kicks, works takedowns, etc. Bags don't do that do they? BIG difference.

Quote:


Are you talking about the mental aspects of fighting?




I'm talking about EVERY aspect of fighting.

Quote:

I will just add this, I took Karate for 6 months years ago, and we sparred ONCE in 6 months !

I do Judo now and from day one we sparred, its great :-)




Wonderful. Your ability will SKYROCKET because you're actually going against resistance.

Quote:

Is the only difference between the people in these clubs (providing none cross-train) is there mental attitude towards fighting or is there more?




Much more. People who spar a lot develop attributes for fighting that people who do NOT spar will never develop. It's night and day.


-John

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#144931 - 06/28/05 01:20 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Jkogas this extract from Geoff's book should explain it.

(Edited for content. Ed Glasheen)


Edited by Ed Glasheen (06/28/05 03:49 PM)

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#144932 - 06/30/05 12:42 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
This is a responce to the wrist locks don't work for-real most bouncers/doorman or Policemen would disagree. Now this is not an attempt to break or fight the guy or guys. But I can't tell you the guys I've detained dragging them around on their tip toes in a wrist lock either to effect an arrest or to control and escourt them outside.

These are guys in full fighting rage, now admittely this is after a stunning strike then sweep and then wrist lock to get them to comply but wrist locks do work. And I've seen them break grown mens wrist and tear the shoulder muscle.

They don't seem to work like they do in the dojo, because the average JQ public don't know how to roll. They usually go up on their tip toes to try to escape or crumble to the ground.

So pending what you are trying to do they work in controlling an angry antagomnist but they don't work in that the guy doesn't do the 10 feet in the air heels touch the ceiling like a good ukemi. So you are right if someone expect that.
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