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#144873 - 05/16/05 07:45 PM is judo street and combat effective
modernwarrior Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 40
now i have watched many judo students go at it with each other but how would it do on the street in a real fight? Im not sure. I know that if you practice something long enough it becomes effective.

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#144874 - 05/17/05 12:23 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: modernwarrior]
Fu Man Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/24/05
Posts: 10
Loc: Michigan, USA

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#144875 - 05/17/05 06:44 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: modernwarrior]
kusojiji Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 648
Loc: kokokokokoko
Quote:

now i have watched many judo students go at it with each other but how would it do on the street in a real fight? Im not sure. I know that if you practice something long enough it becomes effective.





What aren't you sure about?
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#144876 - 05/18/05 03:36 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: kusojiji]
warriortobe Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 21
Loc: UK
Yes is the short answer. If you practice long enough and learn your techniques and throws well it will be very effective against a SINGLE PERSON. Using JUDO in a fight will result in you taking them to ground. If there are multiple attackers this is the worst thing you could do. As always, remember thatr the best self defense is not being there at all. They cant beat you in a fight if u are not there to beat.JUDO is an effective martial art. Train hard and you will go far.
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#144877 - 05/18/05 06:24 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: warriortobe]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Quote:

Using JUDO in a fight will result in you taking them to ground. If there are multiple attackers this is the worst thing you could do.




Not quite. Using Judo in a fight will result in you putting your opponent on the ground. That doesn't mean you have to go there with him. I've found that slamming a guy hard into a concrete pavement seems to take all the fight out of them. And I didn't go anywhere near the ground.
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#144878 - 05/20/05 01:22 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JohnL]
nikos Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 1
Loc: Melbourne
judo is great to use in the street if you are being attacked. Like John said a throw to the ground hurts like hell and once they feel it they wont wanna come back for more

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#144879 - 05/27/05 07:54 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: modernwarrior]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
well I only was in judo for awhile almost a year maybe.. But I agree that if you were in a fight against multiple opponents you would be ..well in a lot of trouble.. especially since if you tried a throw you would be kicked or beaten to the ground.. anyway even against one person I think it would be ok but you would also need to punch and try to damage them before they have a chance to get you.. and if you do slam them into concrete it would hurt but I know guys who would get back up and hurt you.. plus you might have some trouble getting into postition since when you are in a tournament you dont have to worry about a knee being driven into your ribs or strangled , beaten in the head face,etc. so it would be against someone who has an unexperienced fighter but anyone who is confident in themselves and not afraid to attack may be difficult.. but then again I dont know an exceptional amount so don't go by only my opinion.

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#144880 - 05/30/05 06:38 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: kyokushinkai]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
Thinking about it, I think Judo would be better for the street than BJJ because of Judo's priority on throwing. Where as BJJ is takedown to ground. I have known of a few Judoka who did well in a street fight. Ed


Edited by Ed Glasheen (05/30/05 06:38 PM)
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#144881 - 05/30/05 07:04 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Martin Offline
Member

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 31
Loc: Yuba City, CA.
using judo against one assailant can be devestating. a tai-otoshi throw will, when done properly, destroy your opponet. but, as stated earlier, if someone is lurking in the shadows, it may get dicey.

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#144882 - 05/30/05 07:43 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: modernwarrior]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
[Here is where I put something witty about suffering fools or somesuch]

Just ask a black belt judoka to spar. You are getting thrown, yes? A little rattling, even on that soft mat, no?

There you go. There's your answer.

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#144883 - 05/30/05 11:12 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Hedgehogey]
Nagamaki Offline
Member

Registered: 04/07/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Southeast Asia
judo can be effective in the streets, why not?
aside its sportive side ,it has a good self defense aspect as well.
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#144884 - 06/01/05 07:02 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Nagamaki]
BigRod Offline
Does it all

Registered: 02/10/05
Posts: 736
Loc: Atlanta, GA
Judo is definately effective in a self-defense encounter. But you have to remember, there are many elements to a fight - Punching, kicking, grapping, weapons and everything in-between.

A good throw can end a fight. But so can a good punch if you get caught with one. Judo students typically only learn to throw with the gi. What if your opponent is wearing a t-shirt, or no shirt? Your opponent pulls a knife?

The key to defending yourself is really learning how to apply your art (Judo or otherwise) in a variety of situations. And for self-defense, you really should learn a variety of skills.

And most importantly, it comes down to the individual. The techniques of Judo ARE effective. Whether or not YOU can use them (or have been taught to use them) effectively is another story.

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#144885 - 06/02/05 07:28 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ed Glasheen]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Quote:

Thinking about it, I think Judo would be better for the street than BJJ because of Judo's priority on throwing. Where as BJJ is takedown to ground. I have known of a few Judoka who did well in a street fight. Ed




Yes but doesn't BJJ train strickes as well?

Its designed for one on one fighting in the Octocon, however doesn't it prepare you to fight against the stricker?

Just my thoughts.
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#144886 - 06/03/05 12:21 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Hedgehogey]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Judo is a watered down sport version of older Japanese grappling arts. The most dangerious techniques were intentionally removed by Kano for safety reasons. Is Judo going to teach you skills that will give you advantages in a street fight? Absolutely. Will it be as effective as the older Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu , Hapkido or Aikido? Probably not given they are all intended for real combat situations and Judo is not.

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#144887 - 06/03/05 04:12 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Subedei]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Quote:

Judo is a watered down sport version of older Japanese grappling arts. The most dangerious techniques were intentionally removed by Kano for safety reasons. Is Judo going to teach you skills that will give you advantages in a street fight? Absolutely. Will it be as effective as the older Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu , Hapkido or Aikido? Probably not given they are all intended for real combat situations and Judo is not.




Funny how these 'deadly' arts GENERALLY speaking are not trained against fully resisting opos and Judo is.
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#144888 - 06/03/05 04:31 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Not so funny. Judo was specifically designed so that you could train "alive" and not kill someone.

You could have 2 Hapkidoka, aikidoka, jujutsuka agree to train with each other, but not use their dangerous or deadly techniques. Of course then they would be doing Judo

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#144889 - 06/05/05 08:35 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: BuDoc]
Subedei Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
So you are saying because we only make light contact with our strikes, don't practice dangerious takedowns full speed and push past instead of through on our breaks as well as practicing pressure point attacks, numerous weapons, weapon disarms including firearms and defense against multiple opponents in addition to practicing every technique within Judo just as "live" as you do, somehow none of these additional techniques exist at all?

I'm not saying Judo is a bad or in any way inneffective art. I'm saying it was designed for a sport environment and as such thrives in that environment best.

Use your Judo techniques for self defense, they're great techniques! Keep practicing Judo! Just realize that expanding upon that core Judo training is going to prepare you much better for a dangerious confrontation.

And so to summarize: Yes, the core of basically all these arts is identical to Judo, they simply include other things as well that are specifically geared towards a self defense confuntation rather than a competitive one.

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#144890 - 06/05/05 10:12 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Subedei]
Kenage Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 1
I personally like judo because the original style incorporated devastating throws, joint locks and chokes. The downfall to this is the lack of self defense. Yes, some of these aspects were removed accordingly as it became a sport. Let's remember also that most martial arts are derived from an original art of jujitsu. I am personally fortunate enough to have a sensei trained not only in judo, but several other forms of martial arts. Thus our martial art is aptly named Kenage (kennage or "fist throw"). This combines the original devastation of judo attacks as well as the defense of blocks and attacks of strikes (kicks and punches etc...). I think the question of one's personal style should be considered when studying the arts (whatever works best for you / whatever your best at). There is no rule that says you can train in only one form of art. Much has been wasted on argueing which art is the best which contradicts much teaching beyond physical force (your own pride is your enemy). Ironic though, that it is really all one art, isn't it?

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#144891 - 06/05/05 10:57 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Subedei]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

So you are saying because we only make light contact with our strikes,




Your striking must .

Quote:

don't practice dangerious takedowns full speed




Well, that's kindof the whole point of Judo, that you CAN practice their throws full speed. "Dangerous" techniques are a fallacy, since the throws and joint locks in Judo and BJJ are only "safe" in that you are using a pad to cushion the impact and both partners agree to stop when one gives up. Remove these restrictions, and those "safe" techniques can seriously injure at the least.

Quote:

and push past instead of through on our breaks




Don't be a , just tell us wether or not you actually spar to submission.

Quote:

as well as practicing pressure point attacks, numerous weapons, weapon disarms including firearms and defense against multiple opponents




It's like a list of every bad idea in martial arts ever.

Quote:

in addition to practicing every technique within Judo just as "live" as you do, somehow none of these additional techniques exist at all?




Really? Do you actually spar to Ippon?

How, for instance, do you counter a double leg takedown? Can you name a single open or butterfly guard pass? How do you hold kesa gatame on someone who's trying to sneak his knee under your back and get his hooks in for backmount? Can you offbalance in all eight directions? How about escaping mount? All of these are things found in judo (though some will be more emphasized and sophisticated in BJJ).

And if what you do "contains" everything in judo, why are you not entering judo tournaments?

(Moderator note) Since there are children on this forum please keep it profesional. Omitted offesive wording. Ed


Edited by Ed Glasheen (06/09/05 04:30 PM)

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#144892 - 06/07/05 01:17 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Subedei]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

Judo is a watered down sport version of older Japanese grappling arts. The most dangerious techniques were intentionally removed by Kano for safety reasons. Is Judo going to teach you skills that will give you advantages in a street fight? Absolutely. Will it be as effective as the older Jujutsu, Aikijujutsu , Hapkido or Aikido? Probably not given they are all intended for real combat situations and Judo is not.




Actually, I thnik you need to check up on your history a bit. There are several outstanding books on Kano and how he developed judo. The fact that he eliminated some of the more "damaging" aspects of jujutsu does necessarliy translate to "watered down". Also, the concept of it being a "sport" in Japan is nothing like the western idea of what a sport is. Post-Olympic Judo is quite a bit different than what Kano developed and ultimately became Kodokan Judo. Is it still a formidable martial art? You bet ya.

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#144893 - 06/07/05 07:03 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA

MiSt

Ok, look at it like this, most forms of classical jujutsu only included empty hand fighting as PART of the currculum.

(another part is wide range of striking and kicking skills)

The other parts would have been the use of varity of weapons, and defense vs weapons--neither of which is GENERALLY considered at all in "sport" judo or sport MMA.

Kinda gives a whole new meaning to "dangerous" techniques.

So, would you care to match with me?
Me using my knife, which my ryu teachs me to use--and you get to use your empty hands, which is what "sport" judo and the vast majority of MMA schools teach.

But that should be no problem for a person that has trained vs a "fully resistant" oppt--right

All kidding aside, all arts have their weakness, if you look a the history of judo you will find that Kano also seems to have elimnated stikeing and kicking from his art--in point of fact the early judo guys DID train in such, its just that since matchs did not allow them to use such training, it kinda fell away from the main stream.

Kinda funny when you think about it--both English "Boxing" and Japanese Judo served a the basis for modern MMA matchs--but BOTH, had over the years taken an art that USED to have exactly the skills needed for MMA matchs, the skills were lost over time, then had to be REINTRODUCED in order to have MMA matchs.

I guess everything old really is new again.
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#144894 - 06/08/05 12:32 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: cxt]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
Quote:

if you look a the history of judo you will find that Kano also seems to have elimnated stikeing and kicking from his art




I read somewhere that Kano sent 2 students to study with Funakoshi to bring back advanced knowledge of atemi-waza....can't find where. If someone can corroborate this...?

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#144895 - 06/08/05 11:06 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: eyrie]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5821
Loc: USA
eyrie

Kano also sent some his guys to Ueshiba to learn Aikido techniques.

The roster of famous jujutsu masters that taught at the Kodokan in the early days reads like a "Who's Who" of period jujutsu's experts.
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#144896 - 06/09/05 10:09 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: eyrie]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
CXT & eyrie, you are both right.

Kano was a thoughtful, open minded gentleman. He actually called aikido "the ultimate budo" after seeing a demonstration and sent a few of his most accomplsihed Kodokan judoka to study with Ueshiba.

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#144897 - 06/12/05 09:20 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Hedgehogey]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
From my minimal Jujutsu experience, I can pick out one technique which can't be practiced live. Wrist throws can't be practised live because they are actually not really throws. They're wrist breaks taken through the complete range of motion. You have to dive roll out of them to train and so you don't risk injury you should inform your partner of what move you are doing before-hand. If used "for real" the opponent shouldn't even leave the ground, their wrist should just be dislocated. Am I right?


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/12/05 11:41 AM)
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#144898 - 06/12/05 02:20 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
thegnome Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 49
Yes and no, some of the wrist manipulations common in aikido/hapkido/jujitsu will take the person down along with the joint damage. To do tha,t the most important part is the footwork. I can only speak to this from a Hapkido standpoint, but when I have seen the other arts mentioned the moves are similar (there is a common historical thread to them so it would make sense).

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#144899 - 06/12/05 04:51 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: thegnome]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
On the original point of RL effectiveness, I had the pleasure of working doors with two Judoka of dan grades (3rd and 4th respectively) and have to say that they absolutely owned every confrontational situation I saw them in. The ability to take an aggressors balance, use their clothing to your advantage, and my christ their grip!! I would say Judo is most definately an applicable skill set outside of the sport environment.
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#144900 - 06/13/05 07:10 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Cord]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
"(Moderator note) Since there are children on this forum please keep it profesional. Omitted offesive wording. Ed"

-Ed I hate to sound rude, but I seriosuly hope you were not filtering that [censored] from me. I'm not a 'Kid', filtering stuff like that from ANY kids is not going to do [censored], nothing is stopping them from typing 'free porn' into any search engine. Honestly, leave it up there all it does is make Hedge look rude.
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#144901 - 06/13/05 12:22 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
-Mist, for hating to sound rude, you seem quite versed at it.

The job of the moderators on this site is to keep the discussions on track and civil. Omitting offensive wording from posts is part of that job. Did he say "because Mist is a kid, I'm filtering this"? No, he said there are children on this site, do not take a comment that was not even close to being directed at you as a personal insult. "Free porn" has nothing to do with Fightingarts.com. This is not the rest of the internet, this is a personal site and we do what we are told to by the administrators of this site, and that involves what I have said before.

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#144902 - 06/13/05 03:09 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JoelM]
Ed Glasheen Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/21/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Newburgh,NY,USA
I had the option of deleting the whole post but decided on the action I took. Everyone can contribute in a professional manner, and still get their points across without using degratory words.
Ed
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#144903 - 06/14/05 12:58 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ed Glasheen]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Whether you have read them or not, you are required to abide by the rules of the forum if you wish to keep posting here. Moderators have the right to censor or delete any post they feel is breaking the rules. Not only that, they can ban anyone they feel is breaking the rules.

"What are the rules?
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#144904 - 06/14/05 06:28 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
I'm sorry, not sure what got into me, for some reason I felt that that post WAS directed at me, despite being almost Leo's age (but I'm sure it wasn't).

Yes I understand that the Moderators have a job to do, and I think they do a great job of it. It is greatly thanks to them that this froum is the best I have ever come across, ever day the standard of posts seems to get higher.

Once again, I'm sorry.

MiSt
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"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#144905 - 06/23/05 01:40 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: modernwarrior]
slapANDscratch Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 6
Judo can have its place in a fight. Boxing can have its place too just as any other fighting form can have its place. They can have their place in certain situations. Remember, when these arts were first used they were never used alone. They were always used with another form. They were all used in conjunction with something else. Jujutsu, Judo, wrestling, etc. they were never originally intended to be used in COMBAT alone. So, alone they each have their place in a given situation. What is odd is when people state that judo or jujustsu is no good if the opponent has a weapon or if there are several other people attacking you. These facts hold true for ANY art form. Unlike the movies, Bruce Lee would have problems against more than one opponent intent on harming him. He would also have a problem with people with weapons. So to single judo out for having this weakness is a joke. If other forms were great against weapons cops wouldnt need to carry guns.

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#144906 - 06/23/05 04:09 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

From my minimal Jujutsu experience, I can pick out one technique which can't be practiced live. Wrist throws can't be practised live because they are actually not really throws. They're wrist breaks taken through the complete range of motion. You have to dive roll out of them to train and so you don't risk injury you should inform your partner of what move you are doing before-hand. If used "for real" the opponent shouldn't even leave the ground, their wrist should just be dislocated. Am I right?




...Aaaaaand here comes the big one: Then how do you know it works?

You may have a distorted idea of how easy it is to control someone's wrist. I suggest you work for wrist control with a good wrestler. It's a struggle. Not easy at all.

Wait...A lot of the time when sparring at my BJJ class, wrist locks are legal. So please, make sure your arguement makes sense on your bizzaro planet before you try to apply it to earthly affairs.
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#144907 - 06/23/05 05:41 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: slapANDscratch]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
slapANDscratch made some EXCELLENT points.

Personally I think judo is a GREAT art. If you want to round it out, practice against a boxer who will work with you to develop your ability to close the distance and obtain the clinch. Thats what we have done and it works great.

-John

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#144908 - 06/23/05 05:15 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think Judo is a Combat effective art within its range, just like boxing and wrestling. Judo is a skill thats practices against a fighting opponent and once within ist range which is the clinch a Judoka is hard to beat. It has its short coming like Wrestling and Boxing in that its confided by its range and rules.

But Judo with all its throws, locks, chokes and ground work is a forminable combat sport. Boxing and Judo maybe closer in a real scent in that they can end in KO. Whereas wrestling ultimate goal is to pin you.

Add any striking art to it and you would have a complete Combat system, with some mindset modifcations.
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#144909 - 06/24/05 08:55 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Neko456]
Budokan for fun Offline
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Registered: 11/28/04
Posts: 69
Loc: Tornio, Finland
Quote:

I think Judo is a Combat effective art within its range, just like boxing and wrestling. Judo is a skill thats practices against a fighting opponent and once within ist range which is the clinch a Judoka is hard to beat. It has its short coming like Wrestling and Boxing in that its confided by its range and rules.

But Judo with all its throws, locks, chokes and ground work is a forminable combat sport. Boxing and Judo maybe closer in a real scent in that they can end in KO. Whereas wrestling ultimate goal is to pin you.

Add any striking art to it and you would have a complete Combat system, with some mindset modifcations.




Totally agree.
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#144910 - 06/24/05 10:30 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Budokan for fun]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
This is all very well but according to Goeff Thompson (Really knows his stuff IMHO) grappling range should be trained for because "It can be lost quicker than virginity in Springfields" (lol)

BUT it should not be seeked in a 'street' fight, boxing range is the range to try and stay in.

http://www.geoffthompson.com/
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#144911 - 06/25/05 02:17 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:

From my minimal Jujutsu experience, I can pick out one technique which can't be practiced live. Wrist throws can't be practised live because they are actually not really throws. They're wrist breaks taken through the complete range of motion. You have to dive roll out of them to train and so you don't risk injury you should inform your partner of what move you are doing before-hand. If used "for real" the opponent shouldn't even leave the ground, their wrist should just be dislocated. Am I right?




...Aaaaaand here comes the big one: Then how do you know it works?

You may have a distorted idea of how easy it is to control someone's wrist. I suggest you work for wrist control with a good wrestler. It's a struggle. Not easy at all.

Wait...A lot of the time when sparring at my BJJ class, wrist locks are legal. So please, make sure your arguement makes sense on your bizzaro planet before you try to apply it to earthly affairs.




I train other moves against resisting opponents. I'm not saying you can't do a wrist lock against a resisting opponent, although smaller joint manipulations are difficult in such a situation. I'm talking about a wrist throw, where you lock someone and purposefully overextend their wrist. Perhaps you could tell me how I can train this very useful move against someone who didn't know I was going to do the move, without injuring them every time? How can I tell it's going to work? I guess I could go out and pick a few fights but I'm not that stupid. (Some people in my Dojo have been put out of action for a number of lessons because their training partners forgot to tell them before the throw).

Judo removed a lot of moves from Jujutsu because of just this situation. Practicing this technique against a resisting opponent would result in a high rate of injury. I'd rather know the technique than not know it though, might come in handy sometime.
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#144912 - 06/25/05 04:18 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:


boxing range is the range to try and stay in.





Mist -

Just curious as to why you feel that way? I don't think the "boxing range" is the better range to stay in if your opponent is a better boxer. If he's bigger, that's just going to mean a quicker knock-out. It's exactly THEN when you need to crash and take your opponent down (obviously judo and wrestling offer the greatest tools for such a job).


-John

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#144913 - 06/25/05 06:11 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:



I train other moves against resisting opponents. I'm not saying you can't do a wrist lock against a resisting opponent, although smaller joint manipulations are difficult in such a situation. I'm talking about a wrist throw, where you lock someone and purposefully overextend their wrist. Perhaps you could tell me how I can train this very useful move against someone who didn't know I was going to do the move, without injuring them every time? How can I tell it's going to work? I guess I could go out and pick a few fights but I'm not that stupid. (Some people in my Dojo have been put out of action for a number of lessons because their training partners forgot to tell them before the throw).

Judo removed a lot of moves from Jujutsu because of just this situation. Practicing this technique against a resisting opponent would result in a high rate of injury. I'd rather know the technique than not know it though, might come in handy sometime.




As I said, if you've never tested it on someone resisting then you are working entirely from theory. If you can't train it alive, it won't lead to effectiveness.
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#144914 - 06/26/05 12:00 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
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Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
in my experience, judo can be street effective if people learn to adapt their techs for street situations. With its powerful takedowns, throws, chokes, and sweeps it can devestate an opponent. But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications. ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs. That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for. Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.

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#144915 - 06/26/05 03:24 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Quote:

Quote:



I train other moves against resisting opponents. I'm not saying you can't do a wrist lock against a resisting opponent, although smaller joint manipulations are difficult in such a situation. I'm talking about a wrist throw, where you lock someone and purposefully overextend their wrist. Perhaps you could tell me how I can train this very useful move against someone who didn't know I was going to do the move, without injuring them every time? How can I tell it's going to work? I guess I could go out and pick a few fights but I'm not that stupid. (Some people in my Dojo have been put out of action for a number of lessons because their training partners forgot to tell them before the throw).

Judo removed a lot of moves from Jujutsu because of just this situation. Practicing this technique against a resisting opponent would result in a high rate of injury. I'd rather know the technique than not know it though, might come in handy sometime.




As I said, if you've never tested it on someone resisting then you are working entirely from theory. If you can't train it alive, it won't lead to effectiveness.




So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?

Let me put it this way, a lot of people train fire drills if you stay/work in a building (I assume you aren't homeless). We don't practise these by setting fire to our buildings, we train it by pretending that the building is on fire. Why do we do this if we can't tell if it will work for real? Why do fire departments all over the world make this a requirement for fire safety? The reason is because apart from actually setting a building on fire, it's the next best thing. Some training is in case you need it. Ideally you'll never have to apply the training.

The training should work because it's based on a study of what worked when other people were in a real situation or it's based on simple mechanics which should work according to the laws of physics. Have you ever used a chemical based fire extinguisher on a real fire, if not how do you know it'll work? I don't base my training on blind faith, I know that according to the way the body works, it will likely have the effect I want. If it doesn't, I've got plenty of techniques I have trained against resisting opponents which I'm certain will work.

I'm certain that the fire department knows what it's doing, just as I'm certain I know why I'm training.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 03:30 AM)
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#144916 - 06/26/05 04:20 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:

But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications.




Name them and name the difference they would have made.
Quote:


ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs.




1: Hearsay is not valid evidence.
2: Even if legions of Samurai warriors had once long ago charged into battle, dismounted, and devestated invading mongols with Sankyo & etc., that wouldn't mean it could consistently produce skilled, tough fighters. The training method trumps the individual techniques, and when your training method is dead patterns you will get beaten by someone who practices more "limited" techniques in an alive manner. This was Kano's genius.
Quote:


That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for.




False conclusion. Training FOR something means nothing. You can "train for" any number of improbable situations, it won't mean that your Babboon Gang-Rape defense works.

Quote:


Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.




Fallacy: "Judo is a sport THEREFORE it is less effective for self defense". You need to provide a causal connection between the two.
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#144917 - 06/26/05 04:23 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Ubermint Offline
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?




No, i'm saying you should train your techniques with resistance, energy, footwork and timing...In other words, "Alive".

...Wait, before we proceed any further, you do know what aliveness is, right?

Have you watched Matt Thornton's little video?
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#144918 - 06/26/05 05:01 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Ubermint]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
No I haven't watched it, could you post a link to somewhere I can find information on it?

I train randori and full contact striking sparring separately. Do you take that as alive training? I don't train all my techniques against resisting opponents because some can't be trained like that. I train most of them against resisting opponents though.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 05:02 AM)
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#144919 - 06/26/05 09:15 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote:

Quote:

in my experience, judo can be street effective if people learn to adapt their techs for street situations. With its powerful takedowns, throws, chokes, and sweeps it can devestate an opponent. But it is true that Kano did remove many dangerous techs from judo that were also had effective combat applications.




Like what? Aren't throws combat effective? What about chokes? Armbars? Those moves are "practicable". Moves that aren't practicable shouldn't be relied upon anyway, in a real situation.

Quote:

ppl r asking how do such techs work when it can't be practiced to completion and saying that it is hypothetical, but we do know they work because ppl have used the techs.




WHO used them? What matters is whether YOU or I can use them, not some guy 100 years and 1000 miles away from here.

Quote:

That's why those "dangerous" techs are there. I would say that jujutsu and hapkido r more street effective arts than judo cuz that is what they train for. Judo is focused on sports mainly and is very less self-defense oriented than many other arts.




An "art" won't do it's fighting FOR you. I think we can all agree upon that. Any techniques (dangerous or "sport" - which is simply a ridiculous distinction) will have to be performed by THE INDIVIDUAL and will be only as effective as the individual's ability to execute them. That said, what THEN becomes important is HOW they are trained.

Many arts cannot be trained in an alive manner because of the "alleged" danger of the moves in question. The individual will never completely develop skill in those techniques, if they cannot be practiced in the manner in which they will be executed, and that is, against a COMPLETELY resisting oppponent. Japanese jiu-jitsu (which the early judo guys overwhelmed at a Police Bujitsu contest) and Hapkido are two arts which contain just such technique. All that "deadly" technique in their "collection" simply means that, those fighters don't become nearly as SKILLED within it's use. So that argument is really a moot point.

Leo_E_49 wrote:
Quote:

So you're saying I should go out and pick a few fights and try it full strength to see whether it works?




Personally, I don't think anyone needs to go out and pick a few fights when you can up the intensity level of training with your own partners. That's really what his point was.


Quote:

Let me put it this way, a lot of people train fire drills if you stay/work in a building (I assume you aren't homeless). We don't practise these by setting fire to our buildings, we train it by pretending that the building is on fire.




But the FIRE department DOES train against real fire. They are the ones that have to fight it - not the people doing the "fire drills". All they are doing is leaving the scene. I can do that with people too in the circumstances of a real fight: just teach them to get up and walk away. That would be no problem would it? But, if they had to fight, that would be a completely different situation because the dynamics are COMPLETELY different - just as if they had to actually stay and fight the fire (as opposed to just leaving).

Quote:


The training should work because it's based on a study of what worked when other people were in a real situation or it's based on simple mechanics which should work according to the laws of physics. Have you ever used a chemical based fire extinguisher on a real fire, if not how do you know it'll work?




Again, I don't think that's an accurate comparison. Totally different dynamics.

Quote:


If it doesn't, I've got plenty of techniques I have trained against resisting opponents which I'm certain will work.




That's all his argument was about though. That was the whole point.

Quote:

I'm certain that the fire department knows what it's doing, just as I'm certain I know why I'm training.




Once again, the FIRE department DOES train against "live" fire. I see them do those exercises all the time taking buildings that are no longer used, setting them ON FIRE and then putting them out.


Cheers,

-John

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#144920 - 06/26/05 10:00 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
If u read my post JKogas, i did say judo techs can be effective in SD situations, but u have to modify them for SD situations, u can't grip a gi on the streets!!! I know that judo techs r effective, i've trained in it. Also u can know a tech will work if u don't go all through with it. I happen to know wrist breaks work cuz i have used it in SD. Any doctor can tell u that rotating a wrist through its full range of movement will break it, so its no stretch of the imagination if that if i go all the way with the tech it can hurt somebody. I mean how do special ops know they can snap someone's neck if they haven't gone through the whole range of motion? Or how can a soldier know that they can shoot someone accurately if they don't practice on live targets? Obviously locks must work cuz in joint-manipulating arts, injuries occur all the time even without going full through. Judo is not intended for the streets, it is sport-oriented. Other arts do focus on SD situations. Did i say that judo fighters couldn't win in a sport setting, i.e. the contest between the police and them. Winning in a sport setting does not mean superiority in a SD situation. And for ur info: The original Kodokan Judo school did not beat every JJJ school they went up against and were sometimes beat miserably. Also old school Kodokan Judo wasn't that much different from other JJJ schools except for a better systemization of techs and better use of physics.

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#144921 - 06/26/05 11:04 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote
Quote:

If u read my post JKogas, i did say judo techs can be effective in SD situations, but u have to modify them for SD situations, u can't grip a gi on the streets!!!




Yes I understand that. We train to grip only the body. Of course, people DO wear clothes on the street. I'd wager to say that you can grip the clothes that people wear. Naturally though, gripping the body within the clinch is where we place a lot of our attention.

ta_kuan_dao wrote
Quote:

I know that judo techs r effective, i've trained in it. Also u can know a tech will work if u don't go all through with it. I happen to know wrist breaks work cuz i have used it in SD. Any doctor can tell u that rotating a wrist through its full range of movement will break it, so its no stretch of the imagination if that if i go all the way with the tech it can hurt somebody.




"Knowing" is different than "doing" or, being "able to do".

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:


I mean how do special ops know they can snap someone's neck if they haven't gone through the whole range of motion?




They don't.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Or how can a soldier know that they can shoot someone accurately if they don't practice on live targets?




Different thing altogether.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Obviously locks must work cuz in joint-manipulating arts, injuries occur all the time even without going full through. Judo is not intended for the streets, it is sport-oriented.




Judo is an art. It's intention thus becomes the intention of the practitioner. If the practitioner "intends" to execute a throw on the street, then that is what it's intention is for. Sport/street BS debate, bears little significance.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Other arts do focus on SD situations. Did i say that judo fighters couldn't win in a sport setting, i.e. the contest between the police and them. Winning in a sport setting does not mean superiority in a SD situation.




What you're basically implying is this: "I might get my ASS kicked in when there are rules in place, but once there are no rules, then I will win".

That argument is based upon a premise that the "other" person doesn't understand how to fight dirty and, hasn't modified his technique for a no rules event. That's an ASSUMPTION. And its one that might not be good for one's health.

What "might" happen is, when there are no "rules", your lack of performance ability (since you "lost" in an event with rules - wihch theoretically, should be even EASIER considering that there are less variables for you to be concerned with) could get you hurt even MORE severely by the guy with superior performance ability. Following the line of reasoning there? It's something you MIGHT want to consider.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

And for ur info: The original Kodokan Judo school did not beat every JJJ school they went up against and were sometimes beat miserably.




Show me statistics.

ta_kuan_dao wrote

Quote:

Also old school Kodokan Judo wasn't that much different from other JJJ schools except for a better systemization of techs and better use of physics.




So what you're again basically saying is, the judo schools performed better because they had (your words) better systemization of techniques and better use of physics.

Thanks for making my argument.



-John

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#144922 - 06/26/05 11:22 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
OMG IM GOING TO CRY I JUST SPENT AGES COPYING QUOTES AND STUFF FROM GEOFFS BOOK, LOST IT ALL
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#144923 - 06/26/05 11:27 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
MiSt Offline
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Ok attempt number two.(Lost all heart)

Jkogas - The main reasons behind this are:

1.You can be dragged to the floor.

2.You are 'tied' to your opponent.

Jkogas, sorry for the short reply, I lost my long reply when I moved the book I was quoting from against the keyboard for a better view, and it hit F7 ! :-(

PS: Have you read any of Geoff's work? I HIGHLY recommend reading it if you train for self defence it may teach even you somthing!

Are you familiar with 'the line up'?
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#144924 - 06/26/05 11:57 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
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Mist wrote

Quote:

Ok attempt number two.(Lost all heart)

Jkogas - The main reasons behind this are:

1.You can be dragged to the floor.

2.You are 'tied' to your opponent.






Hi Mist. Attempt number two, lol. I hear you! I've done that a LOT of times. Question though, you said; "the main reasons behind this are..."

I am assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that you meant, the reason behind "staying in boxing range".

For the record, I agree with that sentiment. To clarify my stance on "street fighting" in general: I prefer avoidance as I think that avoidance is almost always possible. That basically means, I'm going to put a LOT of distance between myself and potential trouble. MUCH more distance in fact than just "boxing range", lol.

However, sh*t happens. That's life. In those situations it's entirely possible that I could be facing someone not only BIGGER than me, but also a better striker. It's my opinion that we (as martial artists) should not assume that we're always going to be "better" at fighting than our opponents. IF my opponent is bigger and better, maintaining boxing range might just play right into my opponent's strengths and he could knock me out. If that were to happen, the decision to stay in boxing range (in retrospect) would not then have been the wisest decision.

It might thus be better to attack my opponent's strategy with a counter strategy. Basically, attacking striking with grappling and, conversely, grappling with striking. Particularly if my opponent is better at those than I am.

Quote:


Jkogas, sorry for the short reply, I lost my long reply when I moved the book I was quoting from against the keyboard for a better view, and it hit F7 ! :-(

PS: Have you read any of Geoff's work? I HIGHLY recommend reading it if you train for self defence it may teach even you somthing!

Are you familiar with 'the line up'?




Don't sweat it Mist! Its a pleasure to converse with you regardless. I am a fan of Geoff Thompson as he's a guy that gets it (understanding the need for grappling). I haven't read his books however. What I've gotten from him has occurred by way of internet forums, his website and email exchanges. Bright fellow there.


-John

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#144925 - 06/26/05 01:14 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
Leo_E_49 Offline
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Registered: 02/24/05
Posts: 4117
Loc: California
Okay, the fire thing was a bad analogy. Apart from the spin on it that I wanted to put about surviving (escaping), rather than fighting. I'd love to know a way I can train those techniques against a resisting opponent, but the fact is I can't. I still enjoy knowing what they are and I like having them in case I need them. As far as my other techniques go, I'll keep training them against resisting opponents in the sure knowledge that they'll work under pressure. My training philosophy is based around developing a strong set of fundamentals and then expanding from there anyway. Without the core set, which I train in an "active" manner, the rest is quite pointless. I'd like to see those videos about aliveness posted earlier. To be honest I'll probably be moving to Judo training after I leave my current Jujutsu school because of availability issues, so I'll eventually be training under Kodokan randori rules anyway.


Edited by Leo_E_49 (06/26/05 01:24 PM)
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#144926 - 06/26/05 01:52 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
MiSt Offline
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Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Jkogas are you familiar with 'the line up' tactic? (Pre-emptive strike)

And if so what do you think of it in terms of SD?

On a different topic I understand you and agree with you on your training 'alive' beliefs for grappling that is. But for strikeing doesnt it become much more confusing?

(Doesn't the line between 'alive' and 'dead' training become much more blurred?)

For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?

I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt


Edited by MiSt (06/26/05 01:54 PM)
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#144927 - 06/26/05 06:39 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
Ubermint Offline
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Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
Quote:


For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?




A drill which develops power and endurance. Hitting a punching bag, there is actual impact, and it develops the physical attributes associated with fighting (IE muscles).

Quote:


I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt




Completely different. Any good boxing coach will tell you, "go to the well" too many times and opponent becomes wise to you. In shadowboxing you want to cut down on the number of repeated techniques.
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#144928 - 06/26/05 07:19 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
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Ok guys, I would like to respond to everyone’s posts and I will do so as I can. Please note that we all have our own viewpoints. That’s great and is as it should be. We’re all on different paths here. No disrespect is or will be intended.

Leo_E_49 – I have almost always seen things the same way that you do (from having read some of your posts). I’m quite certain that we’re a lot closer philosophically here than you might at first think. I’ll read your post and respond momentarily.


Mist wrote

Quote:

Jkogas are you familiar with 'the line up' tactic? (Pre-emptive strike)

And if so what do you think of it in terms of SD?




I can’t say that I’m familiar with it. I’ve just finished searching for it all over the internet and can’t find anything about it. Could you fill me in with a little info please?

Quote:

On a different topic I understand you and agree with you on your training 'alive' beliefs for grappling that is. But for strikeing doesnt it become much more confusing?

(Doesn't the line between 'alive' and 'dead' training become much more blurred?)

For example hitting a punch bag, alive or not?




Well, understanding the definition of “aliveness” is always the first thing to do. Aliveness is having timing, motion and energy present within your training. In the case of a heavy bag, there isn’t really the aliveness (by definition) present. The bag doesn't HIT BACK, so there's no "energy" or resistance present. But right there, one could then say something like: “See, right there is a “dead” training method that is used for fight training all the time!” And, that would be true. The difference is (like with weight training), it’s a “dead” training method but, heavy bag training does NOT teach you how to fight. It (like weight training) only makes your fighting better by the development of specific attributes involved in fighting.

Heavy bag training makes a person as much of a fighter as would participating in dancing or weight training. They’re good to do, but they really don’t, in themselves, turn a person into a fighter. THAT is only going to happen with alive training. It’s the aliveness that develops the TIMING, so critical to being a competent fighter

Quote:


I understand how 'Kata' is 'dead' training but Shadow boxing?




Shadow boxing won’t in itself, develop a person into a great fighter either. Shadow boxing is certainly more alive than kata, but energy from a resisting opponent isn’t present. Therefore by definition, it isn’t completely alive either. Liken shadow boxing to weight training and dancing. Ok for developing attributes, etc.

Quote:

A Kata is a fixed set of moves so really isnt it just 'listed combinations'?

Which would be what a boxer uses when he shadow boxes.
Edit: Ok a boxer doesn't use 'listed' combinations but he does use combinations.
Thanks - MiSt





Kata is a predetermined and “fixed” pattern. Shadow boxing is never predetermined. Someone doing shadow boxing is never using a footwork patterned nor any predetermined set of attacks and defenses. They’re two different animals really.


Cheers!

-John

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#144929 - 06/27/05 06:53 AM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Yes but Jkogas the only difference I can see between hitting a bag and hitting an opponent is that the opponent moves :-/

Are you talking about the mental aspects of fighting?

I will just add this, I took Karate for 6 months years ago, and we sparred ONCE in 6 months !

I do Judo now and from day one we sparred, its great :-)

Is the only difference between the people in these clubs (providing none cross-train) is there mental attitude towards fighting or is there more?
_________________________
"The deeper you delve into philosophy the sadder you become."

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#144930 - 06/27/05 06:19 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: MiSt]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

Yes but Jkogas the only difference I can see between hitting a bag and hitting an opponent is that the opponent moves :-/




Bags don't fight back. The opponent punches, kicks, works takedowns, etc. Bags don't do that do they? BIG difference.

Quote:


Are you talking about the mental aspects of fighting?




I'm talking about EVERY aspect of fighting.

Quote:

I will just add this, I took Karate for 6 months years ago, and we sparred ONCE in 6 months !

I do Judo now and from day one we sparred, its great :-)




Wonderful. Your ability will SKYROCKET because you're actually going against resistance.

Quote:

Is the only difference between the people in these clubs (providing none cross-train) is there mental attitude towards fighting or is there more?




Much more. People who spar a lot develop attributes for fighting that people who do NOT spar will never develop. It's night and day.


-John

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#144931 - 06/28/05 01:20 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: JKogas]
MiSt Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 396
Jkogas this extract from Geoff's book should explain it.

(Edited for content. Ed Glasheen)


Edited by Ed Glasheen (06/28/05 03:49 PM)

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#144932 - 06/30/05 12:42 PM Re: is judo street and combat effective [Re: Leo_E_49]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
This is a responce to the wrist locks don't work for-real most bouncers/doorman or Policemen would disagree. Now this is not an attempt to break or fight the guy or guys. But I can't tell you the guys I've detained dragging them around on their tip toes in a wrist lock either to effect an arrest or to control and escourt them outside.

These are guys in full fighting rage, now admittely this is after a stunning strike then sweep and then wrist lock to get them to comply but wrist locks do work. And I've seen them break grown mens wrist and tear the shoulder muscle.

They don't seem to work like they do in the dojo, because the average JQ public don't know how to roll. They usually go up on their tip toes to try to escape or crumble to the ground.

So pending what you are trying to do they work in controlling an angry antagomnist but they don't work in that the guy doesn't do the 10 feet in the air heels touch the ceiling like a good ukemi. So you are right if someone expect that.
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