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#144758 - 05/16/05 02:43 PM Grappling methods in Karate
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Since most the people on this karate forum are training in the more serious side of karate. I am curious to know about your grappling methods and your chief uses. the art I study, since it contains alot of throws, dont focus so much on grappling methods other then stand up locking and trapping and then only as throwing setups usually. Its ground work is a similier to a highly simplified version of judo, and is is mostly choking methods the ground work has maybe 5 to 10 locks for the limbs that are highly adaptable.

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#144759 - 05/16/05 03:17 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I think there are proabably a few styles that have some grappling. However, karate, in my opinion has always been mostly a striking system, unless it is a hybrid style.

The grappling that I have learned has been introduced by karateka with Judo and BJJ experience. I have personally sought out BJJ experience to compliment what I have learned for standup.

As far as pure karate doing a lot of grappling...I think this generally outside its core technical background.

-B

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#144760 - 05/16/05 03:51 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
We train three distances within the "mandatory" stuff; punch-kick, clinch and groundwork, it's basically up to the individual which of them, if any, they like to emphasise more.

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#144761 - 05/16/05 04:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: nenipp]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
A number of karate styles claim to have grappling techniques in them.

The problem I have though is that invariably, when karateka try and explain or do them, they're all pretty poor at them.

If you want to do some grappling, head into a BJJ or Judo school. They're really good at it. You may then find that what you're being taught is sometimes in your kata. Great. But go to the guys who do it regularly to learn.
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#144762 - 05/16/05 05:21 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: JohnL]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Hmmm, wouldnt it make sense that throwing and grappling would be a regular part of karate if it was in kata. Karate jutsu uses the same basic throws that judo does. In the classes I took karate was more of a close range striking/standup grappling/throwing system with very few ground methods as emphasis is staying on your feet. All the ground methods are techs done in the process of getting up. Along with the basic karate blocking and striking methods judo throws were taught, for example the techs taught at go kyu level were: shoulder throw, hip throw, inner and outter reap and yoridama. They were also drilled heavily and used often in sparring.There isnt many more taught at higher ranks but they all work. I never thought of karate as just a striking art, because if it couldnt just be striking if it was for self'defense. Also even though the throwing methods are the same, they are set up through normal karate striking methods mainly. Some of the throws were set up by palmheels to the chin to snap the head back.

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#144763 - 05/16/05 05:43 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
AgentT,

I agree with you as far as the throws. The style of karate I practice has throws in it...some not standard to judo type throws.

But the question is still one of grappling. And my experience would suggest that grappling in most styles of karate, if there, is not emphasized. Throws yes. Not ne-waza. I could certainly be wrong about your style, but suppose it would have to have a jujitsu background...and not karate.

Warmest regards,

-B

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#144764 - 05/16/05 05:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Gino Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 410
Loc: New York State
I've been training in Kobayashi Shorin-ryu for some time now. While there are plenty of bunkai to learn and explore, We thought they were all from a standing position. Like locks, arm bars, traps, etc. Then, to supplement our karate training, some of us have also been studying Two-Circle Ju Jitsu. We can now see where some of the standing tuite techniques, taken directly from kata, can be applied to ground-fighting. Just starting to learn about this stuff, very cool.
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#144765 - 05/16/05 06:01 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: butterfly]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
It does have methods similier to jj for groundwork and jj was taught as part of the karate class. I was refering more to stand up grappling/locking methods not so much ground work. Karate would have to be effective at ground range to be a self-defense method. The ground methods in the karate I trained in were very simple but highly effective. One such method is if a attacker takes you down and he's still standing, scissoring his legs to drop him. I know that probably dont fit most peoples definition of grappling. Another would be grabbing the knee and ankle and twisting, in the process of recovering your footing or hooking one foot behind the lower leg and using your other one to lock or dislocate the knee with a kick. Theres another highly effective one but I cant really explain it. All the methods are done in the process of getting up and most involve locking or twisting the knees.

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#144766 - 05/16/05 09:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Just think about one aspect of grappling, the arm bar.

Within Isshinryu's eight empty hand kata, I've documented over 60 potential arm bars, and as far as I define it if they stick their arm out and you can stick their face in the ground, that's a form of grappling.

The difference is whether one takes the time to develop the skill to use was is obviously there. If you can take what they stick out and use it, then it's there. If you can't do it then it isn't.

There are several other things present within the kata too, but not tonight.
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#144767 - 05/16/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Hi AgentT,

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.

Having this in mind Classical Kara-te does have ground grappling in it. However it was, is, and will never be as advanced as Judo or BJJ. Main reason is because a Classical Pracitioner is using ground grappling to gain positional dominance to continue to strike. However if an arm or a neck presents its self... the practitioner will take it with a BASIC yet effective break or choke (blood or wind). However if you wish to really work on your ground... take JohnL's advice and seek instruction from Judo or BJJ.

Kind regards,

Raul
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#144768 - 05/16/05 11:38 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
I work many of my kata applications from the clinch. My grappling, therefore, tends to focus on clinch control and getting me in a position where I can execute the only throw I'm any good at - the hip-toss. I also use a lot of Chinto and Wansu for leg scoops, single- and double-leg takedowns.

Not that I'm any good at these, mind you, but I see them, and I train them whenever I can.
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#144769 - 05/17/05 12:43 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

Hi AgentT,

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.

Having this in mind Classical Kara-te does have ground grappling in it. However it was, is, and will never be as advanced as Judo or BJJ. Main reason is because a Classical Pracitioner is using ground grappling to gain positional dominance to continue to strike. However if an arm or a neck presents its self... the practitioner will take it with a BASIC yet effective break or choke (blood or wind). However if you wish to really work on your ground... take JohnL's advice and seek instruction from Judo or BJJ.

Kind regards,

Raul




I agree with many of you that karate as seen today is mostly a striking art, especially at the mudansha levels.

To say that karate doesn't have an option for every range and situation is a subjective statement. I have always known it does.

For example in the kata Chinto you have a succession of three movements in the middle of the form which can be applied as a very wicked throw. This is done in renoji dachi (L-Stance) with the lead hand tearing down to the front from a high crossed wrist position. The rear hand stays above shoulder height, the arm bent at the elbow fist up. Your lead hand looks to be executing gedan uke (low block), but is not in this bunkai oyo. Th throwing action is done with spiraling force, the lead (left) hand grabs the hair (or neck) and the rear hand grabs the the opponents right arm. The move before this sets up the throw with a kasushi move and double arm lock from in close. The last "throw" involves spinning counterclokwise (about 270 degrees) and then throwing the attacker. Very cool app..

Anyway following this, right after the last throw, a small step-back with the right leg occurs leaving you in a moderate forward stance. Your lead arm is straightened (bunkai can be stiff-arm to control a low shoot for your legs) and instead of fighting the takedown attempt you go forward with the lead leg grab attempt, bringing your right leg up to a kneeling position beside your front leg. You then kneel down sitting the majority of your weight on your back leg which is under your body and not posted out as in a BJJ or Judo knee-on-chest. Your front leg/shin/knee can push up against his neck or head, and you can squeeze your thighs together and sit down with your weight in the middle to help keep his arm trapped as you finish with a collar choke, trachea crush, carotid occlusion (eagle's claw choke) or other finishing move. The back leg can rest on the side of his rib cage or on his chest. This keeps him from rolling away from you or from getting up.

The reason you would do this type of maneuver, with no leg posted out from your body, is so that your legs are under you for controlling the tackler with your full body weight and/or to get straight up very quickly.

This bunkai is very specific but the movements in the kata allow for multiple interpretations. All of these could be practiced in a friendly sparring session, until you work the kinks out. For detailed groundwork as it relates to submission grappling for your primary avenue of defense you should seek out a good catch wrestling, sambo, BJJ or Judo dojo which teaches newaza.

The groundwork taken from ti, chin-na and tegumi or even AJJ, is geared towards quick finishes and devastating throws. It is not for ring fighting, but the ring fighting stuff is very good to know for SD too. Definitely.

I wonder sometimes if what I know from the Okinawan karate I've done would work in a MMAs situation. I can't say. Many of my friends have rolled with me and they feel that I can definitely take care of myself. I've asked them questions concerning their GJJ principles and sometimes my observations make them say "let's try it and see" and it usually works very well. I know my limited groundfighting skills have served me well on the street at least once, and the guy was a heavyweight wrestler in HS as well as being a Thai guy who had studied Muay Thai his entire life. I actually went down to the ground like he wanted at the end of it and choked him out with one hand from a double head-lock position (he had me and I had him). Of course I had homies to get my back in case someone wanted to put the boot down and I had really finished the fight with several blows, the first being the fight decider in my opinion.

There is grappling for every range in karate and specifically the older kata. I guess the Shorinkan sensei I had in the P.I. who would have us practice sprawling, breakfalling and throwing across a wooden floor was a rarity. We were always told to try and stay on our feet, but he also taught us the fundamentals of fighting on the ground or when to use a takedown versus a strike. Wrestlers were a huge problem at my HS and use to bully certain karate guys, boxers, kickboxers and kung fu'ers. Many a striker got stole and beat to a pulp. My sensei knew this so he trained us accordingly.

If you specialize in grappling you do some type of wrestling. If you want to specialize in striking most would say do boxing or kickboxing , even the Gracie family learns to box. Where I grew up if you wanted to cover all bases in a streamlined relevant curriculum you did good Okinawan karate, or even styles like JKD, Kuntaw or Silat. Dumog was also a good style that included striking and lots of wrasslin'.

Later warriors.

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#144770 - 05/17/05 06:44 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.





Raul, I do not agree.
I use whatever presents itself. I agree that it is easier to initiate a lock when opponent is not strubbling against (the reason for softening) but I have used grappling, throwing, joint locks and finger locks in response to offensive moves in 'real' fights.
A technique we frequently use in sparring at the dojo is putting a lock on the thumb joint of a clenched fist.
You have to be on your toes for the response if your technique missed it's intent and usually you are then in a not so good position tactically. As such striking gives more opportunities because of the distance you are working.
I am not implying that your tactic is not good, just that I also use ti in response or as offensive move without first
atemi waza to soften the opposition. However you are right that in it's core it is a striking art and that the mojority of techniques used are atemi-waza.

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#144771 - 05/17/05 10:40 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Jujitsu was taught as a part of my karate class raul. I got plenty of ground methods to go off of. I was just interested in Karate style grappling methods, since they seem to be rarely taught effectivly. The karate grappling methods I've studied are etheir stand up or methods done in the process of recovering but the stand up methods do work on the ground just as well. It does surprise me how little grappling is taught in karate, seeing as how okinawan ti was mostly grappling. Although we do soften with strikes but that makes more sense then going in and risk the attacker being able to pull you down with him.

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#144772 - 05/17/05 10:31 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
The Karate I study has very effective grappling techniques. Look up Seiyu Oyata's system. That is what I study.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#144773 - 05/17/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

Jujitsu was taught as a part of my karate class raul. I got plenty of ground methods to go off of. I was just interested in Karate style grappling methods, since they seem to be rarely taught effectivly. The karate grappling methods I've studied are etheir stand up or methods done in the process of recovering but the stand up methods do work on the ground just as well. It does surprise me how little grappling is taught in karate, seeing as how okinawan ti was mostly grappling. Although we do soften with strikes but that makes more sense then going in and risk the attacker being able to pull you down with him.




Read my post. Okinawan (real) karate has plenty of grappling. In fact I find that the grappling inherent in a good Okinawan system equals or exceeds that of JJJ. And it's never nice or "soft" in intent. You can't really breakfall with many of the throws either.

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#144774 - 05/18/05 04:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
do you have any links to this superior okinawan grappling? I was just curious cause i always wondered about that myself and have never seen any US instructors or any japanese instructors demonstrate grappling that was already in their karate.

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#144775 - 05/18/05 11:39 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

do you have any links to this superior okinawan grappling? I was just curious cause i always wondered about that myself and have never seen any US instructors or any japanese instructors demonstrate grappling that was already in their karate.




Nope it ain't gonna be that easy or commercial Mr. Sarcastic. Search like I did for over a decade or when you're in SA, Tx. hit me up on here and I'll twist you like a pretzel if you'd like...

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#144776 - 05/19/05 09:07 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102

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#144777 - 05/19/05 09:13 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
I wasnt being sarcastic. I got stuff to put you in a pretzel too. Ive got some harimau and other ground fighting systems of silat that I do where you can have both legs tied up while cranking their chin towards you or elbowing them in the back of the head. There is a position from a front takedown where the guy has his leg up in the air and you step around his hip and have it locked while you lean towards his face and punch away. ALso, ways to tie yourself up with your own shirt and walk away where you will not be able to get out unless someone helps you.

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#144778 - 05/19/05 10:00 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

here's some grappling

http://www.pecahan.com/mmdemo.WMV




Some very compliant grappling. Fortunately most techniques look good with no resistance.

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#144779 - 05/19/05 10:44 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: medulanet]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Looks almost too pretty to be practical doesn't it. I like the dramatic poses after he's finished...very vogue.

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#144780 - 05/19/05 11:46 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Kintama]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
yeah, the poses are just kinda the traditional thing. Actually this guy's instructor doesnt have too much experience but trust me, this stuff can be done. The style (Harimau) is exclusively designed around maneuvering on the ground. And sure it is pretty slow in the demo. In real life it is very very fast. There are phillipino guys in my group that could maneuver around your legs and take you down before you do a jab cross.

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#144781 - 05/20/05 12:42 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

yeah, the poses are just kinda the traditional thing. Actually this guy's instructor doesnt have too much experience but trust me, this stuff can be done. The style (Harimau) is exclusively designed around maneuvering on the ground. And sure it is pretty slow in the demo. In real life it is very very fast. There are phillipino guys in my group that could maneuver around your legs and take you down before you do a jab cross.




Really! Can we see that on video?
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#144782 - 05/20/05 03:29 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: SANCHIN31]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
Maybe. I will see if I can get some of the other guys in my group to do a technique or two. If not I will get one of my roomates to get a video clip of me doing one. You might check out the video "secrets of harimau" for more realistic stuff or look into Herman Suwanda's videotapes. He is dead but some people still sell some of his videos around, I just bought one on ebay. There are not really any good video clips I would say of silat on the internet at all because first of all it is pretty rare and second the old generation of practitioners either dont like showing their stuff or are dying out. The newer silat is getting into more of the sporting aspects unfortunately. My instructor is really against videotaping though at all because he used to let people do it early on and they take techniques and put out videos and say they are part of their system. Some Bjj guys picked up the "cobra lock" from one of his seminars in the 60's and claimed it as theirs, after that I think he just decided he didnt want people to capitalize off his art. sorry, I forgot even who I was writing back to. It is kinda late and IM pretty tired. Here is one link to the website of the system I do and another is a massive picture gallery that has some interesting things. Note the weapons on the second to last page. My instructor has seen a man get his side totally slit open and killed with that weapon in the bottom right corner. You can get away with all kinds of stuff still in indonesia as there is no suing anyone and its not illegal to walk around with knives and swords. There are still cannibals there too so that is pretty intense.

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#144783 - 05/20/05 03:45 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
What exactly is a "cobra lock" and how was it "stolen"?

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#144784 - 05/20/05 12:29 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Hedgehogey]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
man, i am kinda angry cause i just accidently erase this. Oh well. I looked on the internet and wanted to find a picture of a cobra lock so you can visually see what it is. ALL I got was talking about it. Basically it is when you go to the ground and are on a side mount on the guy. You slap the guys arm closest to your side towards his other arm and you loop your hand under his neck and grab the arm you just slapped. You wrap his own arm around his neck choking him and then you slip in your other fist and grind it into the cartoid artery. It is a pretty painful choke. They have it listed on this learn how to fight quick websites as one of his techniques but he calls it a cobra choke. http://www.safetytechnology.com/guardsubmissions.htm
It was "stolen" when "Oom" Jim had an early seminar at a grappling school in the 60's or so. That was one of the techniques that he learned in Indonesia and he was already knowledge about grappling techniques in America. Pretty soon like a month or two later he started seeing magazine articles and pictures with the same choke in there that he had never seen any grappling schools do up till this point. That is why he generally doesnt like people to videotape his stuff. Many people make money off of silat if you just look in paladin press the people who claim they do silat either barely learned any and claim they are a teacher or they have no real lineage and its not silat. But........there is some silat guys on a different newsgroup and they are sending me a seminar from the late 80's of my instructor. His school wasnt supposed to videotape but they apparently did anyways and he still has the footage so if I get it soon I will try to post a clip of him doing a cobra lock. ALso, you usually dont just grab his arm and try to put it behind his neck. You usually start from a standing position and soften him up with 3 or 4 strikes and then take him down and transition from there.

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#144785 - 05/20/05 01:43 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Hedgehogey]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Hedge -

Petjut describes the same "cobra lock/choke" that I learned in my JKD grappling class. I can't do it very well, but my instructor can.
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#144786 - 05/20/05 01:55 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

I wasnt being sarcastic. I got stuff to put you in a pretzel too. Ive got some harimau and other ground fighting systems of silat that I do where you can have both legs tied up while cranking their chin towards you or elbowing them in the back of the head. There is a position from a front takedown where the guy has his leg up in the air and you step around his hip and have it locked while you lean towards his face and punch away. ALso, ways to tie yourself up with your own shirt and walk away where you will not be able to get out unless someone helps you.




I don't doubt you. Silat has some pretty unconventional grappling and groundfighting in it. I saw some examples of it in the Philippines. I don't know of any specific sites which detail Okinawan grappling, but it most certainly does exist too. There is an article in the magazine section which details some of Hohan Soken's grappling. Look for the interview with Soken O'Sensei done by Ernest Estrada. He talks about how old style Okinawan karate is replete with grappling and pressure point attacks. It's a good read.

Peace.

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#144787 - 05/20/05 04:32 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
yeah, actually I think i remember reading about Hohan grappling too. I just heard a mention of it, but yes i think you are right. I would be interested to look that up for fun.

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#144788 - 07/13/05 02:08 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
reaperblack Offline
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Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I do shorinkan shorin ryu and we are told that our style is mostly grappling, just that we do it all standing. We don't do any strikes that aren't to a pressure point and followed by a holds and locks movement, or something that is designed to maim, or debilitate. Naihanchi is full of grappling. Just standing up. We do armbars, chokes, neck breaks, throws, takedowns, trips (with lock), wrist locks, etc. Sounds like grappling to me.
Roger

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#144789 - 07/13/05 12:33 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
WADO Offline
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Speaking from the perspective of Wado which is probabally the most grappling or at least "Jui Jitsu" oriented of the major styles, when Karate came to Japan The Japaese School system required students to take 5 years of Jui Jitsu or 5 years of Ken Jitsu, so for many teachers a fundamental understanding of grappling was assumed, even today in Japan PE programs sped a great deal of time on Judo. I think it is possible some styles might have overlooked training in those techniques. One of the main reasons Otsuka left Funakoshi, although it was friendly was a dispute over whether training should be more kata oriented or whether karate is best learned in the old Jui Jitsu way of practice with a noncompliant partner.

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#144790 - 07/13/05 03:40 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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In our system ground fighting we incoroperated into our kisos and bunkias, in this form you throw and strike, or roll with them & strike. Its tradional two man kata.

At the 4th level its continous sparring you spar and if you get into range to grapple you implement it, if its to your advantage. You only have so long to end it or get back your feet. This type grappling reminds me of Judo randori, no prepared counters. Where as in the bunkia remind of a fight, you strike the grion roll the guy into a head smashing throw and finsh with an eye gouge both people on the ground. Of course the guy rolls & block the strike.
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#144791 - 07/13/05 04:15 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ironfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Of Isshinryu's 8 kata, 5 are from Shorinryu, and I agree with reaperblack there's grappling in Naihaichi. Hey, I read one article claiming it's a ground-fighting kata, which would be another explanation of why you never check behind you.

But one of the 2 kata we borrowed from Gojuryu, Seuchin, is just LOADED with grappling. In fact, you could probably do the entire thing with NO striking. I think I'll check into this.
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#144792 - 07/14/05 04:16 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ironfoot]
Shidokai Offline
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Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
Quote:

But one of the 2 kata we borrowed from Gojuryu, Seuchin, is just LOADED with grappling. In fact, you could probably do the entire thing with NO striking. I think I'll check into this.




Goju-ryu kata often have lots of grappling. I'd say that about 50% of what I've learned from doing Goju kata has not been striking based. More often than not, it's a mix of the two.

My caveat is don't trust karate grappling without either a training partner with lots of Jujutsu/Judo/BJJ experience, or even better, your own experience in these things. If you're not training grappling against people who grapple regularly, you're probably not grappling right.
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#144793 - 07/14/05 09:42 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
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Loc: Derry, NH
Pick a system, Okinawan or Japanese, and they all have kata technique with great grappling application potential. But the general view of karate is that of punch kick.

It seems to me a large part of this is a result of instructors focus.

Historical thoughts

1. On Okinawa if you wanted to grapple, you studied Okinawan Sumo. It is impossible to believe karate developed to not deal with Sumo technique.

2. One of the potential source material for karate development might be observed in Okinawan Ti today, and it contains a great deal of direct grappling technique.

3. If the source is credited to the Chinese systems, they likewise almost all contain chin-na, grappling traditions too.

But as karate did not develop for contest, and many of the kata grappling techniques execution would cause extreme distress to the recipient.

I believe foremost Okinawa itself was not a violent place, and there wasnít a reason to focus on these applications for new students. Instead the punch/kick was emphasized for several reasons. Second doing a technique and being able to perform it against someone actually attacking are very different things. The layers of training for the latter take time, and if most people donít need it, there was no impetus to develop the art in those directions.

Why karate in Japan became what it is is a different topic, but similar training restrictions exist.

Then the idea karate grappling wonít work against real grapplers is based on some observation of incomplete training, IMO.

Karate grappling requires moving through several layers of study. The beginning ones focus on the techniques at longer ranges and on the upper body. They are skill building sets and many seem not to move beyond those layers. But after initial karate grappling application study, the range must get closer and the involvement of the lower body must be inserted into the study, and the full usage of turning added, too.

The standard attacks to train general principles move on to more random attacks and even totally random sparring against non-compliant individuals. And a large degree of control must be developed, for many of the techniques cannot be plied flat out. Most partners are unwilling to suffer the damage.

Most karate technique when done with two closing bodies and full body utilization starts to become very involved. Arm, leg and neck wrenching (up to dislocation or even breaking) becomes more a reality.

At its most basic level every karate system in existence contains dozens of arm bars and sweeps/reaps. But they also contain grappling attacks and automatic counters for attacks too. A huge percentage of the Japanese Aikido system can be found within the kata, and those techniques bear a startling resemblance to the techniques used in Okinawan Ti too. Then there are secrets such as the more effective kata striking technique develops, the more effective that kata grappling will work too.

The problems with many of the current inter-art comparisons rests on inadequate training against the range of attacks being faced, and the restrictions of the arts involved.

A simple example, as I practice it Isshinryuís Seisan kata contains a descending vertical strike. One of the simple applications of that movment would be if someone tries to dive for the legs, using that same strike can smash into an eye cavity with precisions, seems an interesting disruptive principle. But to use it effectively you need to work hard against the shoot for timing and correct distancing. Just doing the kata is not adequate, though the potential is there.

The issue isnít karate isnít effective against pure grappling systems, but is there sufficient reason to direct the training to counter those attacks for reality. If there is the training system should be modified. If there isnít, spend the time where it seems more productive.
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#144794 - 07/14/05 11:48 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ogoun Offline
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Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Roger, Gino:
I too train in Shorinkan. We do go to the ground as well for grappling. On two separate occasions I was taken to the ground and my arm was locked. Once by Higa-san and the second time by Kyoshi Perry. Both take-downs were very similar. Specifically, Kyoshi Perry was demonstrating the third count of the Chinto kata as a result of a similar question regarding grappling.

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#144795 - 07/15/05 12:22 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ogoun]
reaperblack Offline
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Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I did not mean that as uke you would not end up on the ground. I have recieved ukemi face up, down, sitting, kneeling, on my side, and every other conceivable position in Shorinkan, but at no point have I been nage and touched more than one knee down (and that was on someone, not the floor). I get tossed around like a rag doll on a regular basis. (I can hardly wait for kyoshi Haley's next visit, that guy is like a train) I meant that we don't roll around on the ground as nage. If you do, that would surprise me, admittedly, as this is the last place you want to end up when fighting multiple opponents, and this is supposed to be a style geared towards multiple opponents. I mean I can understand if it is on the "What if?" scenario, but I have never heard of this in Shorinkan.
I have never trained with kyoshi Perry, my Sensei has, and so has my sempai, but I have not.
I hope to someday though, is he feeling better?
Roger

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#144796 - 07/15/05 03:21 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Shidokai Offline
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Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
Mr. Smith,

Great points about historical origins of Okinawan karate. I'm certain that there is a lot of grappling in all Okinawan karate, and that it is simply something that has gotten phased out or forgotten over time.

I do believe that karate grappling will work quite effectively against grapplers, but I believe that it has to be practiced with a mind for technique against grapplers. Since most karate people aren't grapplers and don't have quite as good a background in grappling, it becomes an issue of either training with grapplers of other styles or finding the few karate people who are very good grapplers. You're only as good as your training partners, as it was once put to me.

A lot of karate grappling is founded on karate movement styles and body mechanics, and they are quite different from Aikido and Judo, though they contain similar techniques. As you pointed out, the techniques can be found, but the "suchness" behind the movements is different, as is the intent. Granted there are only so many ways that a body can move and be moved, but the mechanical differences between Judo and Shorin-ryu or Aikido and Isshin-ryu are quite different. I've found movements like Judo or Aikido in some of my kata, though something in the way they execute ends up being different from Judo and Aikido that I've learned.

I agree with your assessment that interart training and comparison rests on inadequate training/understanding of the principles involved in your own art, which can make it seem like your art is lacking in some way or that someone else's art is lacking.

Example: Nothing against BJJ, but I find that the majority of practitioners don't practice it the way that I would. I'll say right now that I'm not a good groundfighter and probably really never will be. But I do give some pretty decent BJJ guys a run for their money from time to time by the fact that I don't play by but don't break their rules. Since they know the openings of groundfighting better than I do, they usually (3 out of every 5 matches) get the armbar on me. However, I can usually get a bunch of reversals by grabbing and working muscle and nerve points (where the neck muscles connect to the collar bone is a favorite of mine, armpit is another good one) and if I were trying to escape, I would probably be able to get away. It's in the BJJ rules and way of doing things that I get submitted.

Again, agreed about just doing the kata - it has to be reinforced many times through practicing with resisting opponents who will give you life-like training situations.

As karate is quite personal, and was traditionally based on live training with lots of grappling, I argue that this is the ideal way to train for a real-life situation. Do I believe that I will have to use what I know against a high-ranking Judo person? Probably not. If I train regularly against very good Judo or BJJ or shootfighting people, will this help me develop an idea on how to deal with one should I meet one? I'd say so. In other words, I don't feel that I need to modify my system, simply modify the training that I use to reinforce my knowledge of my system.
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#144797 - 07/15/05 04:49 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Ubermint Offline
Member

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
And you've trained/rolled at...which BJJ academy?
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#144798 - 07/15/05 10:26 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Shidokai,

I am very much in agreement with your discussion.

I would like to qualify when I'm referring to aikido, it is based on my own experiences from an instructor whose father trained with one of Usheiba's students in the late 1930's, quite different in excution from most of the aikido I've seen.

In aikido there is aikido and there is aikido and there is aikido and there is aikido, as is in most arts.

The way I was taught a bit when you apply it as in an ikkyo application you just immediately place the persons face into the ground, or euphemastically they strike and eat dirt. The aikido principles cross the variations, but we use extremely tight circles, and there is great affinity to the way karate technique is executed. (still done humanely for practice).

Of course his ground technique, from a tjimande perspective is phenomenial too.


Edited by Victor Smith (07/15/05 10:29 AM)
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#144799 - 07/15/05 01:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Quote:

I did not mean that as uke you would not end up on the ground. I have recieved ukemi face up, down, sitting, kneeling, on my side, and every other conceivable position in Shorinkan, but at no point have I been nage and touched more than one knee down (and that was on someone, not the floor). I get tossed around like a rag doll on a regular basis. (I can hardly wait for kyoshi Haley's next visit, that guy is like a train) I meant that we don't roll around on the ground as nage. If you do, that would surprise me, admittedly, as this is the last place you want to end up when fighting multiple opponents, and this is supposed to be a style geared towards multiple opponents. I mean I can understand if it is on the "What if?" scenario, but I have never heard of this in Shorinkan.
I have never trained with kyoshi Perry, my Sensei has, and so has my sempai, but I have not.
I hope to someday though, is he feeling better?
Roger





I do not disagree with what you say. I brought up those experiences that our kata have techniques that work while we are undergroung. Although we may not choose to go to the ground, but we may get taken to the ground, hoewever, we are not helpless on the ground.

My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me. As for Kyoshi Perry, it was a demonstration of steps 3 and 4 in Chinto, because I asked him a specific question regarding those counts. They are the steps when you spun around on the left leg and they end before the two front kicks.

Last time I had any news about Kyoshi Perry was last November. His absence from the camp was noted by many people. As you said, I hope he is doing better.

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#144800 - 07/15/05 02:01 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ogoun]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ogoun,

When you write "My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me."

I was taught during a takedown the midpoint is the most vulnerable point for being counter thrown. Most of the time if your opponent can drop their center first at that point the reversal can take place. This counter can be countered often by working to control their lower body (such as stepping on their foot, or leg checking them) during the takedown process, neutralizing that moment of vulnerability.

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions on how you were countered, but perhaps you'll find these observations of use.
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#144801 - 07/15/05 10:08 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Quote:

Ogoun,

When you write "My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me."

I was taught during a takedown the midpoint is the most vulnerable point for being counter thrown. Most of the time if your opponent can drop their center first at that point the reversal can take place. This counter can be countered often by working to control their lower body (such as stepping on their foot, or leg checking them) during the takedown process, neutralizing that moment of vulnerability.

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions on how you were countered, but perhaps you'll find these observations of use.




Victor,
I undertand your point perfectly. Over the last few years I came to that conclusion with the assistance of one of my sempai. When my opponent tries to throw ot take me down, I go into the Naihanchi stance, and it makes me more difficult to be thrown or taken down. I assume that works because the stance lowers my center of gravity.

Now, when I throw someone, I make sure that I get them off-balance first, and it makes it more difficult to counter.

As for the assumption, I omitted a few thoughts. At the time of the reversal we were both on the ground, and he apllied the techniques from the kata to control the situation.

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#144802 - 07/15/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ubermint]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
AXIS Jiu-jitsu Academy Fukuoka

And informally, with and with people who train with Eduardo (Dudu) Barros. Dudu's scary good, and gets me (and most people) too fast for me to do anything. The people I've rolled with (Blue and Purple belts) also have similar ability, but I've been able to get away from the encounter, when that's my intent.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

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#144803 - 07/27/05 02:26 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
pisces590 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Texas, U.S.A.
i think what i was taught was grappling, it was only a little and we never practiced much,and it was mainly combos that end in broken bones.

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