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#144798 - 07/15/05 10:26 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Shidokai,

I am very much in agreement with your discussion.

I would like to qualify when I'm referring to aikido, it is based on my own experiences from an instructor whose father trained with one of Usheiba's students in the late 1930's, quite different in excution from most of the aikido I've seen.

In aikido there is aikido and there is aikido and there is aikido and there is aikido, as is in most arts.

The way I was taught a bit when you apply it as in an ikkyo application you just immediately place the persons face into the ground, or euphemastically they strike and eat dirt. The aikido principles cross the variations, but we use extremely tight circles, and there is great affinity to the way karate technique is executed. (still done humanely for practice).

Of course his ground technique, from a tjimande perspective is phenomenial too.


Edited by Victor Smith (07/15/05 10:29 AM)
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#144799 - 07/15/05 01:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Quote:

I did not mean that as uke you would not end up on the ground. I have recieved ukemi face up, down, sitting, kneeling, on my side, and every other conceivable position in Shorinkan, but at no point have I been nage and touched more than one knee down (and that was on someone, not the floor). I get tossed around like a rag doll on a regular basis. (I can hardly wait for kyoshi Haley's next visit, that guy is like a train) I meant that we don't roll around on the ground as nage. If you do, that would surprise me, admittedly, as this is the last place you want to end up when fighting multiple opponents, and this is supposed to be a style geared towards multiple opponents. I mean I can understand if it is on the "What if?" scenario, but I have never heard of this in Shorinkan.
I have never trained with kyoshi Perry, my Sensei has, and so has my sempai, but I have not.
I hope to someday though, is he feeling better?
Roger





I do not disagree with what you say. I brought up those experiences that our kata have techniques that work while we are undergroung. Although we may not choose to go to the ground, but we may get taken to the ground, hoewever, we are not helpless on the ground.

My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me. As for Kyoshi Perry, it was a demonstration of steps 3 and 4 in Chinto, because I asked him a specific question regarding those counts. They are the steps when you spun around on the left leg and they end before the two front kicks.

Last time I had any news about Kyoshi Perry was last November. His absence from the camp was noted by many people. As you said, I hope he is doing better.

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#144800 - 07/15/05 02:01 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ogoun]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Ogoun,

When you write "My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me."

I was taught during a takedown the midpoint is the most vulnerable point for being counter thrown. Most of the time if your opponent can drop their center first at that point the reversal can take place. This counter can be countered often by working to control their lower body (such as stepping on their foot, or leg checking them) during the takedown process, neutralizing that moment of vulnerability.

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions on how you were countered, but perhaps you'll find these observations of use.
_________________________
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#144801 - 07/15/05 10:08 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Ogoun Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Quote:

Ogoun,

When you write "My experience with Higa-sensei was during free-sparring sessions where I tried to take him to the ground, and he reversed the situation on me."

I was taught during a takedown the midpoint is the most vulnerable point for being counter thrown. Most of the time if your opponent can drop their center first at that point the reversal can take place. This counter can be countered often by working to control their lower body (such as stepping on their foot, or leg checking them) during the takedown process, neutralizing that moment of vulnerability.

Of course I'm making a lot of assumptions on how you were countered, but perhaps you'll find these observations of use.




Victor,
I undertand your point perfectly. Over the last few years I came to that conclusion with the assistance of one of my sempai. When my opponent tries to throw ot take me down, I go into the Naihanchi stance, and it makes me more difficult to be thrown or taken down. I assume that works because the stance lowers my center of gravity.

Now, when I throw someone, I make sure that I get them off-balance first, and it makes it more difficult to counter.

As for the assumption, I omitted a few thoughts. At the time of the reversal we were both on the ground, and he apllied the techniques from the kata to control the situation.

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#144802 - 07/15/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ubermint]
Shidokai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
AXIS Jiu-jitsu Academy Fukuoka

And informally, with and with people who train with Eduardo (Dudu) Barros. Dudu's scary good, and gets me (and most people) too fast for me to do anything. The people I've rolled with (Blue and Purple belts) also have similar ability, but I've been able to get away from the encounter, when that's my intent.
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Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

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#144803 - 07/27/05 02:26 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
pisces590 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/24/05
Posts: 80
Loc: Texas, U.S.A.
i think what i was taught was grappling, it was only a little and we never practiced much,and it was mainly combos that end in broken bones.

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