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#144788 - 07/13/05 02:08 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I do shorinkan shorin ryu and we are told that our style is mostly grappling, just that we do it all standing. We don't do any strikes that aren't to a pressure point and followed by a holds and locks movement, or something that is designed to maim, or debilitate. Naihanchi is full of grappling. Just standing up. We do armbars, chokes, neck breaks, throws, takedowns, trips (with lock), wrist locks, etc. Sounds like grappling to me.

#144789 - 07/13/05 12:33 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
WADO Offline

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 900
Loc: denver co usa
Speaking from the perspective of Wado which is probabally the most grappling or at least "Jui Jitsu" oriented of the major styles, when Karate came to Japan The Japaese School system required students to take 5 years of Jui Jitsu or 5 years of Ken Jitsu, so for many teachers a fundamental understanding of grappling was assumed, even today in Japan PE programs sped a great deal of time on Judo. I think it is possible some styles might have overlooked training in those techniques. One of the main reasons Otsuka left Funakoshi, although it was friendly was a dispute over whether training should be more kata oriented or whether karate is best learned in the old Jui Jitsu way of practice with a noncompliant partner.

#144790 - 07/13/05 03:40 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
In our system ground fighting we incoroperated into our kisos and bunkias, in this form you throw and strike, or roll with them & strike. Its tradional two man kata.

At the 4th level its continous sparring you spar and if you get into range to grapple you implement it, if its to your advantage. You only have so long to end it or get back your feet. This type grappling reminds me of Judo randori, no prepared counters. Where as in the bunkia remind of a fight, you strike the grion roll the guy into a head smashing throw and finsh with an eye gouge both people on the ground. Of course the guy rolls & block the strike.

#144791 - 07/13/05 04:15 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Of Isshinryu's 8 kata, 5 are from Shorinryu, and I agree with reaperblack there's grappling in Naihaichi. Hey, I read one article claiming it's a ground-fighting kata, which would be another explanation of why you never check behind you.

But one of the 2 kata we borrowed from Gojuryu, Seuchin, is just LOADED with grappling. In fact, you could probably do the entire thing with NO striking. I think I'll check into this.

#144792 - 07/14/05 04:16 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ironfoot]
Shidokai Offline

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan

But one of the 2 kata we borrowed from Gojuryu, Seuchin, is just LOADED with grappling. In fact, you could probably do the entire thing with NO striking. I think I'll check into this.

Goju-ryu kata often have lots of grappling. I'd say that about 50% of what I've learned from doing Goju kata has not been striking based. More often than not, it's a mix of the two.

My caveat is don't trust karate grappling without either a training partner with lots of Jujutsu/Judo/BJJ experience, or even better, your own experience in these things. If you're not training grappling against people who grapple regularly, you're probably not grappling right.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

#144793 - 07/14/05 09:42 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Pick a system, Okinawan or Japanese, and they all have kata technique with great grappling application potential. But the general view of karate is that of punch kick.

It seems to me a large part of this is a result of instructors focus.

Historical thoughts

1. On Okinawa if you wanted to grapple, you studied Okinawan Sumo. It is impossible to believe karate developed to not deal with Sumo technique.

2. One of the potential source material for karate development might be observed in Okinawan Ti today, and it contains a great deal of direct grappling technique.

3. If the source is credited to the Chinese systems, they likewise almost all contain chin-na, grappling traditions too.

But as karate did not develop for contest, and many of the kata grappling techniques execution would cause extreme distress to the recipient.

I believe foremost Okinawa itself was not a violent place, and there wasnít a reason to focus on these applications for new students. Instead the punch/kick was emphasized for several reasons. Second doing a technique and being able to perform it against someone actually attacking are very different things. The layers of training for the latter take time, and if most people donít need it, there was no impetus to develop the art in those directions.

Why karate in Japan became what it is is a different topic, but similar training restrictions exist.

Then the idea karate grappling wonít work against real grapplers is based on some observation of incomplete training, IMO.

Karate grappling requires moving through several layers of study. The beginning ones focus on the techniques at longer ranges and on the upper body. They are skill building sets and many seem not to move beyond those layers. But after initial karate grappling application study, the range must get closer and the involvement of the lower body must be inserted into the study, and the full usage of turning added, too.

The standard attacks to train general principles move on to more random attacks and even totally random sparring against non-compliant individuals. And a large degree of control must be developed, for many of the techniques cannot be plied flat out. Most partners are unwilling to suffer the damage.

Most karate technique when done with two closing bodies and full body utilization starts to become very involved. Arm, leg and neck wrenching (up to dislocation or even breaking) becomes more a reality.

At its most basic level every karate system in existence contains dozens of arm bars and sweeps/reaps. But they also contain grappling attacks and automatic counters for attacks too. A huge percentage of the Japanese Aikido system can be found within the kata, and those techniques bear a startling resemblance to the techniques used in Okinawan Ti too. Then there are secrets such as the more effective kata striking technique develops, the more effective that kata grappling will work too.

The problems with many of the current inter-art comparisons rests on inadequate training against the range of attacks being faced, and the restrictions of the arts involved.

A simple example, as I practice it Isshinryuís Seisan kata contains a descending vertical strike. One of the simple applications of that movment would be if someone tries to dive for the legs, using that same strike can smash into an eye cavity with precisions, seems an interesting disruptive principle. But to use it effectively you need to work hard against the shoot for timing and correct distancing. Just doing the kata is not adequate, though the potential is there.

The issue isnít karate isnít effective against pure grappling systems, but is there sufficient reason to direct the training to counter those attacks for reality. If there is the training system should be modified. If there isnít, spend the time where it seems more productive.
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

#144794 - 07/14/05 11:48 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: reaperblack]
Ogoun Offline

Registered: 03/22/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Fort Myers, FL
Roger, Gino:
I too train in Shorinkan. We do go to the ground as well for grappling. On two separate occasions I was taken to the ground and my arm was locked. Once by Higa-san and the second time by Kyoshi Perry. Both take-downs were very similar. Specifically, Kyoshi Perry was demonstrating the third count of the Chinto kata as a result of a similar question regarding grappling.

#144795 - 07/15/05 12:22 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Ogoun]
reaperblack Offline

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
I did not mean that as uke you would not end up on the ground. I have recieved ukemi face up, down, sitting, kneeling, on my side, and every other conceivable position in Shorinkan, but at no point have I been nage and touched more than one knee down (and that was on someone, not the floor). I get tossed around like a rag doll on a regular basis. (I can hardly wait for kyoshi Haley's next visit, that guy is like a train) I meant that we don't roll around on the ground as nage. If you do, that would surprise me, admittedly, as this is the last place you want to end up when fighting multiple opponents, and this is supposed to be a style geared towards multiple opponents. I mean I can understand if it is on the "What if?" scenario, but I have never heard of this in Shorinkan.
I have never trained with kyoshi Perry, my Sensei has, and so has my sempai, but I have not.
I hope to someday though, is he feeling better?

#144796 - 07/15/05 03:21 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Shidokai Offline

Registered: 05/22/05
Posts: 162
Loc: Fukuoka, Japan
Mr. Smith,

Great points about historical origins of Okinawan karate. I'm certain that there is a lot of grappling in all Okinawan karate, and that it is simply something that has gotten phased out or forgotten over time.

I do believe that karate grappling will work quite effectively against grapplers, but I believe that it has to be practiced with a mind for technique against grapplers. Since most karate people aren't grapplers and don't have quite as good a background in grappling, it becomes an issue of either training with grapplers of other styles or finding the few karate people who are very good grapplers. You're only as good as your training partners, as it was once put to me.

A lot of karate grappling is founded on karate movement styles and body mechanics, and they are quite different from Aikido and Judo, though they contain similar techniques. As you pointed out, the techniques can be found, but the "suchness" behind the movements is different, as is the intent. Granted there are only so many ways that a body can move and be moved, but the mechanical differences between Judo and Shorin-ryu or Aikido and Isshin-ryu are quite different. I've found movements like Judo or Aikido in some of my kata, though something in the way they execute ends up being different from Judo and Aikido that I've learned.

I agree with your assessment that interart training and comparison rests on inadequate training/understanding of the principles involved in your own art, which can make it seem like your art is lacking in some way or that someone else's art is lacking.

Example: Nothing against BJJ, but I find that the majority of practitioners don't practice it the way that I would. I'll say right now that I'm not a good groundfighter and probably really never will be. But I do give some pretty decent BJJ guys a run for their money from time to time by the fact that I don't play by but don't break their rules. Since they know the openings of groundfighting better than I do, they usually (3 out of every 5 matches) get the armbar on me. However, I can usually get a bunch of reversals by grabbing and working muscle and nerve points (where the neck muscles connect to the collar bone is a favorite of mine, armpit is another good one) and if I were trying to escape, I would probably be able to get away. It's in the BJJ rules and way of doing things that I get submitted.

Again, agreed about just doing the kata - it has to be reinforced many times through practicing with resisting opponents who will give you life-like training situations.

As karate is quite personal, and was traditionally based on live training with lots of grappling, I argue that this is the ideal way to train for a real-life situation. Do I believe that I will have to use what I know against a high-ranking Judo person? Probably not. If I train regularly against very good Judo or BJJ or shootfighting people, will this help me develop an idea on how to deal with one should I meet one? I'd say so. In other words, I don't feel that I need to modify my system, simply modify the training that I use to reinforce my knowledge of my system.
Don't hit at all if it is honorably possible to avoid hitting; but never hit soft. - Teddy Roosevelt

#144797 - 07/15/05 04:49 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Shidokai]
Ubermint Offline

Registered: 06/23/05
Posts: 154
And you've trained/rolled at...which BJJ academy?
Grappler or not you are a terrible martial artist IMO.-sanchin31, friend to all children

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